August 31, 2006, - 5:27 am

Why Are Mormons (& John Conyers) Funding Islamic Terrorism?

By Debbie Schlussel
Mormons are among the most patriotic Americans.
So, why are they the new financiers of Islamic terrorism and instruction for young children in beheadings?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Mormon Church, is the single largest donor to the U.S. branch of Islamic Relief Worldwide (IRW), also known as Islamic Relief. In the past year, it donated $1.6 million to the charity.
But Islamic Relief is not just any charity. The Israeli government says it is a HAMAS front group. It is also under investigation by the American government.
IRW was founded in 1984 by Dr. Hany El Banna. He is a relative of Hassan El Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood terrorist group–from which HAMAS, Yasser Arafat, and Al-Qaeda’s second-in-command Ayman Al-Zawahiri emanated.


This Equals This

(Islamic Relief = Islamic Terror Artwork by David Lunde)

In May, Israel deported Ayaz Ali, IRW’s chief of operations in Gaza, after three weeks in jail. Israel said Ali gave money to HAMAS and Al-Wafa and Al-Tzalah, both outlawed by Israel for laundering money to HAMAS. He also stored images of Osama Bin Laden, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, Senior German Nazi officials, Nazi swastikas, and a “God Bless Hitler” banner on his computer.
An Israeli government statement about Ali and IRW said:

He also admitted that he worked in Jordan and cooperated with local HAMAS operatives. . . . Incriminating files were found on Ali’s computer, including documents that attested to [Islamic Relief’s] ties with illegal HAMAS funds abroad–in the UK and in Saudi Arabia–and in Nablus.
The IRW’s activities in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip are carried out by social welfare organizations controlled and staffed by HAMAS operatives. The intensive activities of these associations are designed to further HAMAS’ ideology among the Palestinian population.
These associations’ educational and religious institutions incite against the State of Israel and advocate terrorist actions against it and its citizens.

In 1999, IRW’s British headquarters received $50,000 from a Canadian group that the Treasury Department says is a Bin Laden front, according to the Los Angeles Times.
Investigator Bill Warner notes that IRW’s registered agent in the United States, Kazbek Soobzokov, is the son of Nazi Waffen SS officer Tscherim Soobzokov. Soobzokov was the lawyer for deported accused terrorist and Islamic cleric, Imam Wagdy Mohamed Ghoneim. Regarding Ghoneim, Immigration and Customs Enforcement official Bill Odencrantz said, “Frankly, our task is not to sit around and wait for people to blow up buildings.”
An Islamic Relief fundraising dinner I attended in summer 2004 in Dearborn, Michigan, was chilling. It was just after Americans Nicholas Berg and Paul Johnson were beheaded by Muslims.
The evening’s “entertainment” consisted of young boys–some apparently as young as seven–simulating beheadings and shootings of other young boys who donned the American, Israeli, and British flags. Then they put red scarves over their heads to symbolize blood . . . and no head. Afterward, they took off the flags and stomped on them. Almost every Islamic leader in town was there, clapping in ecstasy. So was U.S. Congressman John Conyers, who will run the House Judiciary Committee if Democrats regain control of Congress.
The master of ceremonies was Rayed Tayeh, formerly employed by Islamic Association for Palestine, which several former top FBI officials say is a HAMAS front group. In 2002, Tayeh served as spokesman of a Muslim group boycotting Starbucks because its Chairman is Jewish. A letter Tayeh wrote in a Capitol Hill newspaper was deemed so anti-Semitic that even Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney fired him from her staff.
An Islamic Relief fundraiser I attended, Friday, was tamer. Misbah Shahid, the organization’s Detroit representative, announced that IRW publishes and distributes school textbooks to children in Palestinian refugee camps. But textbooks distributed in the camps are riddled with anti-Semitic, anti-Christian, and anti-American rhetoric, according to Molly Resnick of Mothers Against Teaching Children to Kill and Hate.
Shahid also told the audience that his organization is one of the key Non-Governmental Organizations currently distributing aid to Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, including U.N. and U.S. aid. But those camps are known as breeding grounds for terrorists.
Given all this, why are Mormons pouring millions into Islamic Relief? They aren’t alone.


Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour, Islamic Relief’s Yousef Abdallah

Islamic Relief’s brochures show Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour accepting Katrina aid from IRW, last year. It is a consultative member of the U.N. It was founded in Britain with the continued financial aid and assistance of the British government, whose ambassador to Israel convinced the Israeli government to allow Islamic Relief to open its HAMAS-friendly Gaza office.
Almost five years after 9/11, we will never end terrorism if the West continues to sanction its funding.

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102 Responses

What do you expect? Mormons are not Christians and no Christian church recognizes their baptisms. There always has been a streak of anti-semitism in the bunch.

taffy on August 31, 2006 at 7:05 am

Mormons probably donate money to Muslims because they are both completely made up religions. If you ever watch South Park, watch the one about Mormons it’s hilarious how they came up with there whacky religion. Besides, Mormons are similar to Muslims, they believe in polygamy. I don’t see how Mormons can consider themselves Christians but hey I guess John Smith, or whatever his name was, was possessed by the devil just like Mohammad. That or Smith found some great shrooms in the woods when he had these “visions”.

Minnie Mouse on August 31, 2006 at 7:58 am

Great article Debbie.
Minnie Mouse loved your comment about Smith Shrooms and Visions. (still laughing)

tinylady on August 31, 2006 at 8:48 am

My gut reaction is that the money was part of some negotiation, ransom or funneled through the Mormons by the U.S. Mormons know how to keep secrets and live just below below rebellion and just above petty government stupidity.

code7 on August 31, 2006 at 10:41 am

There are of course only three reasons: they didn’t know or they know and don’t care or they know and want to contribute to terrorism. The middle reason is unlikely, so now that they know (or will very soon…), it will be apparent which of the other two reasons it is. Debbie’s articles are always well researched and chock-full of info and exposure. If the leadership in the Mormon church do nothing with this kind of information, then they should be exposed for supporting terrorist organizations. If they halt their contributions knowing the truth, then they should be congratulated for doing the right thing based on accurate information. It is indicative of a larger problem in America…that Americans blindly contribute money to undeserving or front organizations…just like they blindly believe whatever is given to them as “news” or “the truth”…without bothering to find out otherwise. Of course, when (as it has been for decades now), the only access to “news” is the pussy-liberal-controlled media…most of America doesn’t know “the truth”. Thank God we have people like Debbie Schlussel and her ilk who will do the work…do the research…and tell the truth.

Ziggy Spaz on August 31, 2006 at 10:51 am

Very interesting article. If this is true, there are some very significant theological issues that Mormons must face. How can the LDS church leadership (who are thought to be guided by God)fund terrorism unless one of two things is true? 1) They really aren’t being guided by God or
2) God is in favor of terrorism.
If there is another option, I’d sure be interested in hearing it.

Keith Walker on August 31, 2006 at 11:00 am

Mormons are prosetlyzers. I wonder if they think they will get Muslim converts if they grovel enough?
Not too long ago Mormonism was a cult, like Scientology.

lexi on August 31, 2006 at 11:07 am

It never ceases to amaze me the ignorance, hatred, dis-respect and stupidity of those so called “Christians” about other world religions. Anyone who uses South Park to justify their POV just goes to show their intelligence and education level.
Also, I love the comments that Mormons aren’t Christians; when in fact Mormon means a member of “The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter day Saints.”
Additionally, all those comments about anti-Semitism further prove the ignorance and idiocy of those who would argue against God’s one true religion. I quote from the LDS Churches 10th Article of Faith: “We believe in the literal gather of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes…” Sounds very anti-Semitic doesn’t it?
Debbie maybe you should do a little bit more research into why things are the way they are instead of throwing out blatant attacks on a religion without having all the facts.

jon on August 31, 2006 at 11:28 am

My comments about your article are directed straight at your research. How many of the Leaders of the LDS Church did you contact? You obvisouly know that Senator Hatch is LDS, did you contact his office? How about Bennett, Matheson, Bishop, Cannon? (If you do contact Cannon make sure to ask him about his curent stance on immigration reform)
My other comments were directed at those people who made the ignorant comments about the LDS religion. This is not a personal attack against you it is #1 a defense against the religion from the bigots on the board and #2 a question as to why if you spent so much time researching this issue didn’t you talk to members of the LDS church? Did you even try?
When you make a post like “Why are Mormons funding Islamic Terrorism” that is a blatant attack in my opinion.
My comments about your article are directed straight at your research. How many of the Leaders of the LDS Church did you contact? You obviously know that Senator Hatch is LDS, did you contact his office? How about Bennett, Matheson, Bishop, Cannon? (If you do contact Cannon make sure to ask him about his current stance on immigration reform)
My other comments were directed at those people who made the ignorant comments about the LDS religion. This is not a personal attack against you it is #1 a defense against the religion from the bigots on the board and #2 a question as to why if you spent so much time researching this issue didn’t you talk to members of the LDS church? Did you even try?
When you make a post like “Why are Mormons funding Islamic Terrorismî that is a blatant attack in my opinion.

jon on August 31, 2006 at 12:06 pm

Jon says: “Debbie maybe you should do a little bit more research into why things are the way they are instead of throwing out blatant attacks on a religion without having all the facts.”
Jon…Is the religion you refer to Mormonism? If so, I assume you’re a Morman. Can you tell us, has Debbie mis-reported the facts regarding a $1.6M donation by your church (Latter Day Saints) to the terrorist IRW organization? If on the other hand the LDS church has made such a donation, then what facts are you referring to that Debbie is missing in her report? And maybe, in your reply, you can also provide any additional information that will be helpful in understanding how donating large sums of money to a MEDIEVAL DEMONIC CULT (islam) equates to the humanitarian goals and objectives of the LDS church.
Although I’m not Mormon, like Debbie I have always had a great deal of respect and admiration for the Church based on individual mormons I’ve known. I would really hate to think that the LDS leadership is leading the Church into the abyss of MEDIEVAL DEMONISM from which islam slithers like a cockroach.
I eagerly await your response and explanation.

joesixpack31 on August 31, 2006 at 12:10 pm

Here are some facts I would like to know: What are the circumstances around the donation? Was this funding sent in the form of 1.6 million in aid? as in food, clothing, etc? What are the Ôø?FactsÔø? around the donation? Who received the donation, what was the flow of the donation? Do you know?
Wasn’t there a huge earth quake in Pakistan last year, wherein tens of thousands of Muslims died? (I get the sense that Muslims being killed in an earth quake is probably ok for many Christians on the board, they are after all of the devil, especially those little kids, better to kill them young then fight them later right?)
Anyhow, I digress, The LDS Church gives money to many groups and organizations who are helping all of God’s children, we don’t discriminate. If evil people do evil things with a good faith donation then we should check into it, but I would caution anyone from making blanket statements about the intention of donations: “Why are Mormons funding Islamic Terrorism”

jon on August 31, 2006 at 12:30 pm

First of all, I am not anti-Mormon. I too think they are very nice, respectful people. When referring to the South Park episode is merely to point out how they deviate from the Bible, ie. Jesus came to the United States. Also, in South Park they show that Mormons are very good people as well. In the end, the Mormon kid tells Stan “sc@*# you” because Stan concentrates on how Mormons are different and does not respect their different beliefs. South Park is certainly not my final authority on anything, although, I’ll take their word on the Scientology episode.
Anyway, I think Muslims could learn quite a few things from Mormons.
1. Mormons believe in dressing conservatively, to be modest but they don’t wear burlap sacks to cover their women.
2. Mormons try to spread their faith, like anyone else, yet they are very polite about it. No death threats or beheadings.
3. Mormons allow their women to work and they are not oppressed, yet they still remain chaste despite being allowed to drive, gasp!
I don’t know about the funding connection, it may be ignorance on the part of the LDS leadership as to whom they are dealing with. Maybe this would be the perfect opportunity to tell them about the Islamic Relief.
So Ok, maybe I was a little harsh in calling them not Christian. I just think SOME of the premises they base their faith on is markedly different from Christianity. Do I think Mormons will burn in hell for not following the Bible, no of course not. They still have pure hearts and I would say that they live their lives according to the word of Jesus Christ. I still don’t agree with the multiple wives thing but I don’t know how modern Mormons view this issue.

Minnie Mouse on August 31, 2006 at 12:34 pm

The problem with many of these Muslim Charities is the vast majority of them do fund terrorists. Also with the earthquake in Pakistan, most, if not all of that money donated will go to the terrorists in the northern district. That is where the earthquake hit the hardest and that is where the terrorist training camps are. It takes thorough, thorough research to check any charity group really, to make sure the money goes where it says it’s going. If it’s a Muslim Charity, then some if not all of that money will go into the wrong hands. Besides Saudi Arabia, the west is the terrorists biggest cash cow.

Minnie Mouse on August 31, 2006 at 12:40 pm

Ok Minnie, very respectful post. It just really touches a nerve when people call “Mormons” not Christian when the official title is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. The doctrine is different no question, won’t argue it with you.
Anyhow, I have seen the South Park episode about the Mormons. While they (Trey et al) were fairly accurate they missed on a couple of things; especially the whole Martin Harris bit as he was one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Anyhow, another South Park episode shows a bunch of good Christian people in hell wondering what they are doing there? The administrator guy after a brief Q&A is asked “What was the right religion” to which he responds “The Mormons, the Mormons is the correct response” or something along those lines.

jon on August 31, 2006 at 12:48 pm

This is an example of the types of “donations” being made by the LDS Church.,15503,4044-1-23460,00.html
SALT LAKE CITY Ôø? Islamic Relief Worldwide and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are working together to provide urgently needed medical supplies to victims of the devastating earthquake that struck Indonesia on Saturday.
More than eight semi-truckloads of critical medical items from the ChurchÔø?s welfare and humanitarian storehouses in Salt Lake City were flown to Indonesia in a 747 cargo jet provided by Islamic Relief Worldwide. The plane left Salt Lake City International Airport on Tuesday evening and is expected to arrive in Indonesia by late Wednesday.
This rapid-response shipment includes critically needed supplies to care for the thousands injured in SaturdayÔø?s disaster: first-aid supplies, materials for making casts to set broken arms and legs, walkers, canes, crutches, warm-weather clothing for hospital patients and hygiene kits.
These materials are being provided in close coordination with Indonesian government officials. Arrangements are in place to transport these badly needed items to the disaster area immediately upon arrival in Indonesia. Islamic Relief Worldwide will assist with on-site distribution.
Government officials and other observers are calling the quake one of the worst in IndonesiaÔø?s history. The 6.3 magnitude quake struck Saturday morning on the Indian Ocean coast near Yogyakarta, killing thousands and leaving tens of thousands injured and homeless. The United Nations reports more than 40 percent of the injured and homeless are children.,15503,4044-1-5638,00.html
Peruvian Quake Victims to Receive Additional Church Aid
28 June 2001
SALT LAKE CITY Ôø? As the number of homeless earthquake victims in Peru approaches 40,000 people, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is accelerating aid efforts. The Church has provided additional funds for its leaders in Peru to purchase relief supplies. The supplies will be donated to the country’s civil defense organization for distribution. More provisions will be loaded on trucks at the Church’s Salt Lake City humanitarian center, transported to Miami, then flown to Lima. Those supplies include:
Boxes of food.
Hygiene kits (assembled during a Church women’s conference in Utah).
Blankets and other supplies.
Following last Saturday’s quake, Church leaders in Peru used local Church resources to provide water, food, blankets and tents to victims. Church meetinghouses have been used as emergency shelters.
Of the 100 Peruvians killed and 1,500 injured, one of the dead was a young Church member. Four other members were injured. One Latter-day Saint chapel sustained substantial damage, and there were minor damages to a few other buildings.
Muslims and Mormons Flying Aid to Southern Asia
31 December 2004,15503,4044-1-20751,00.html
So on and so forth, over and over again….
That’s my point…

jon on August 31, 2006 at 12:55 pm

Yes, I saw that one as well. I guess why people would classify Mormons as not Christian is because they believe Jesus was in America. However, if I have this wrong, let me know. It was a long time ago in grade school when we briefly went over the LDS. Do they beleive that he was still Jewish and from Israel but made a stop over in America or was he never in Israel, or what is modern day Israel? I am just curious. I know this is off topic but it might help clear up the whole Mormoms not being Christian for those of us that have not studied the LDS anymore than a few lines in grade school or South Park. If you are Mormon, you should definately contact your church leadership about their donations to IRW. I’m sure you know that HAMAS is no friend of Christians or Jews, no matter how they try paint themselves as a legitimate government. They have virtually destroyed Bethlehem after the Israelis withdrew and not to mention they are evil for all of the deaths they are responsible for.

Minnie Mouse on August 31, 2006 at 1:03 pm

The main difference between mainstream Christianity and Mormonism is two fold:
#1 – Don’t adhere to the idea of the Trinity. Mormon’s believe in three distinct beings, Jesus Christ, God the Father, Holy Ghost (Spirit)That is the “vision” Joseph Smith received that led to what Mormons believe to be the Restoration of Christ’s Church.
#2 – The idea of Deification.
Additionaly, a belief in the Book of Mormon to be ancient scripture written by prophets here in the Americas on golden plates and translated by Joseph Smith. See John 10:16

jon on August 31, 2006 at 1:12 pm

Congratulations on joining the long list of journalists to stir up hatred against the mormons. I’m sure when there has been a little more research done that you will find that there was not a 1.6 million cash donation to fund terrorism as you remarks imply. Most of the humanitarian aid that the mormons donate to disasters around the world is carefully distributed to those who need it…not placed in the hands of terrorists to distribute. I’m sure that there will be a forthcoming officail statement responding to your accusations. Even if it shows that not a cent or a scrap of bread ever went to a terrorist, it won’t be enough. Mormons will forever be linked as pro terrorists because for some reason, this country is always ready to pounce on the mormons. The real truth about the mormons is never sensational enough, it it?
How about a nice article sometime on religous bigotry? You have evidence in your comments on how easy it is to stir up hatred against of the mormons. Ever stop to wonder why that is? You began your article on how patriotic the mormons are. Have you ever stopped to wonder why that too is true? If there is a group of people who have every reason to hate this country, its the mormons. Why then are we so patriotic? Why is it that in a country founded on religeous freedom, that the mormons are always singled out? Because of their religeous beliefs, the mormons have been driven out of their homes and had their property seized by “christian” mobs. Their leaders imprisoned and tortured, their women raped and their children murdered for their beliefs by “christian” mobs. If that wasn’t bad enough, there was a government santioned “extermination act” against them. Even when they left the United States and moved to Utah, the federal government declaired war on the mormons. History shows that most of the hatred against the mormons was was stirred up by a few journalists like yourself and by “christian” ministers of various sects. Do you ever hear the mormons loudly complaining? Do you see them in court demanding reparations and compensation for lives and property illegally taken by governments and “christians?” No, the mormons just quietly move on and rebuild their lives and wait for the next time when religeous bigotry raises it ugly head. Think I’m exagerating? Your headline didn’t say, “Is the mormons humanitarian aid ending up in the hands of terrorists?” or “Mormon humanitarian efforts supporting terrorists.” In fact, I find it hard to believe that the mormons are the only religeous organization to offer humanitarian aid. Why did you single out the mormons? You said, “Why are mormons funding terrorism?” History indeed repeats itself and, by looking at your comments, you have again stirred up and angry anti-mormon “christian” mob. Congratulation to you…looks like you will get what you wanted. I noticed in some of your comments that you are back peddaling a little bit saying how you respect the mormons. Try unringing a bell.

Doc on August 31, 2006 at 3:55 pm

As to Mormons belief in a different Jesus Christ, according to Mormon Church President Hinckley (1998) Mormons believe in a different Jesus than other Christians (see LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p7) as found at The LDS Jesus is described completely differently by Mormons. LDS, like Muhammad and Islam, claim the Old and New Testaments of Christians, BUT, the Koran and the Book of Mormon claim to be the new truth and correct / supersede the Old/New Testaments at every point of variance. Both the Koran and the Book of Mormon were authored by a one man who self proclaimed himself to be the new, authorized prophet. Neither the Koran nor the BOM have the support of history or archeology, they are nothing except the musings of Joseph Smith, who had a shady past as a treasure seeker who raised an army to defend his LDS beliefs, and Muhammad, who was a raider of caravans (land pirate),and raised an army to advance Islam at the point of the sword. All of Western Culture, especially Christians and Jews, now feel the effects of 1400 years of the Jihad sword at the back of their necks. Both LDS and Islam converted Jesus Biblical message of LOVE and FORGIVENESS to religions based on LAW and RETRIBUTION OF DEATH. As to Islam, read the Guide to Islam by Robert Spencer, etc.

Patriot USA on August 31, 2006 at 5:19 pm

Typical Anti-Mormon rhetoric Mr. Patriot USA. You are unable to look past your own bigotry and see the truth. Just goes to prove that most “Christians” especially the Far Right Nut Jobs are so wrapped up in their views that they don’t want to even try and understand the truth.
The fact of the matter is that Jesus’ gospel was and is about LOVE? What is the great commandment in the law? (Matthew 22:39, did you remember the story of the Good Samaritan) Well you tell me who has been a Ôø?neighborÔø? to the Muslims?
Why don’t you go check out these humanitarian efforts and see who actually adheres to this teaching of love their neighbor as opposed to condemning the Muslims to hell.,15343,3898-1-612-19,00.html
Some of the ones about our Muslim brothers and sisters:,15503,3881-1-23770-666,00.html,15503,4085-1-23568,00.html,15503,4085-1-23485,00.html,15503,4085-1-23392,00.html,15503,4085-1-20955,00.html,15503,4085-1-20751,00.html,15503,3881-1-20741-666,00.html,15503,4085-1-17959,00.html
Do you start to get the picture, instead of being blinded by your bigotry against the mission of the LDS Church why not act like a Christian and show some love, Mr. Patriot? Or is that just too much to ask?

jon on August 31, 2006 at 5:54 pm

Thanks Patriot for the synopsis on Mormon origins and for ferreting out these true (hidden) superior-to-Christian sentiments of jon the Mormon — or Mormon sympathiser:
jon wrote:
” Just goes to prove that most “Christians” especially the Far Right Nut Jobs are so wrapped up in their views that they don’t want to even try and understand the truth. ”
Isn’t it interesting that the Mormons can have 72 virgins to have sex with while on earth, but the Islamo-fascists have to wait till they KILL their way to heaven.
All is passion and rank sensualism devoid of all but the semblance of reason.

TallT on August 31, 2006 at 7:03 pm

Deb, relgion is what it is, you can’t ask questions, you can’t question god. It does what it does because it’s inspired by an easter bunny character. and this easter bunny character has faeries. So if I created my own religion, I would say be cool to the people, be cool with Jews and do whatever you want. No dogma, no orders, nothing.

KOAJaps on August 31, 2006 at 7:09 pm

Wherever there is free cash waiting to be claimed by victims, there will be islamic charities seeking a share to finance terrorist operations. By endlessly claiming the victim role, they harvest endless handouts from guilt ridden suckers in the “civilized” world who trip over one another to finance their own destruction.
The mormons are evidently in that group. Jon and Doc seem to flush with rightousness at the notion that LDS does not discriminate in the distribution of its largesse. Kind of like the american red cross who even financed criminal defense lawyers for terrorist suspects after 911 using doner contributions.
Sorry guys. Any donations in the form relief items or material placed into the hands of islamofascists will be converted to cash in the pockets of jihad before that material reaches any needy person.

joesixpack31 on August 31, 2006 at 8:42 pm

This is a slight modification of post I made to another post on an article by Daniel Pipes.
Submitted by orange yonason, Apr 9, 2006 at 19:04
About a year ago I was watching a National Geographic special called “The Haj” which followed three converts to Islam on their first Haj. One of them noticed that there was a nearby town whose inhabitants were very poor and needy. He was so moved by the Imam’s rhetoric on “charity” that he went out and bought food and other things they needed, and had it delivered to them. They were overwhelmed, because (and I can’t believe they let the announcer say this) NO ONE COULD REMEMBER ANYONE EVER HAVING DONE THIS BEFORE!
Just think. Every year, millions of “peace loving” “charitable” Muslims, with a town of starving people just a stone’s throw away (just putting it in terms they can understand), and not one of them had ever bothered to help, UNTIL this naive fellow who didn’t know you weren’t actually supposed to DO it.
Those people know NOTHING of real charity. All their charities are solely for the purpose of spreading their ideology, and the wars it breeds.

yonason on August 31, 2006 at 9:08 pm

Debbie, you don’t have to be all that respectful of the Mormon church. Aside from their basic set of beliefs being Scientology level you know what, they continue to posthumously “baptize” Jewish Holocaust victims into their Church, even after claiming they would stop. Not that I’m bitter.

shleppy on August 31, 2006 at 9:12 pm

To comment on your article, giving money to one’s terrorist enemy is a symptom of the giver’s inability to distinguish between the dangerous and the benign in the world around him: [if it isn’t malicious, which the Mormons probably aren’t] And I’m not just talking about money, but anything that provides them with the tools they need to do their malevolent work.
I have no idea why this is so widespread, but it’s obvious it isn’t only a problem with the Mormons. I see this article as being about them because they just happen to be currently manifesting the symptoms.
I don’t need to dwell on the Democrats, and how they empower our enemies. Most on the Right already know that, and pointing it out to the Dems is a waste of time.
The disturbing part about this is that whatever is causing it the Republicans are also affected, though usually to a lesser degree.
As an illustration of how a non-Mormon can behave badly, please consider this picture which speaks volumes regarding terrorist manipulation of even some of our staunchest conservatives.
And, I’m afraid that even Mr. Bush is not immune…
I only wish the situation were as amusing as Cox and Forkum make it appear.
Something is seriously wrong with a worldview that leaves one unable to tell the difference between friend and deadly foe, especially when that foe has told you to your face he intends you harm.

yonason on August 31, 2006 at 10:12 pm

Debbie writes many articles on who funds charity organization that support terrorists. This one happens to be about Mormons. She wrote one just a couple of months ago or so about Presbyterians meeting with Hizballah. As Yonason said, many people give money to these charities and don’t know where it’s actually going. Debbie is not saying that Mormons condone terror, she’s wondering if the LDS is aware of this crooked charity. I’m sure the head of the IRW talks a good game about how poor his people are and how the LDS should help these poor “Palestinians”. Actually, the “Palestinians” recieve more money in aid per capita than any COUNTRY. So why are they so poor? Because the money goes to buy weapons. So if the LDS doesn’t want to give money to terrorists then maybe they should re-think this particular charity.
This is the point of Debbie’s article and just because people don’t agree or believe in your religion, doesn’t mean we are going to form a mob and come out to Utah to attack Mormons. Nowadays, not 100 years ago but now, it’s your decision to believe what you want and it’s everyone elses decision to have their own beliefs. Just because some of us don’t see the “true light” of Mormons doesn’t make us bigots either.
The 2004 FBI hate crime incidents by religion are roughly as follows, 95 anti-Christian, 159 anti-Muslim and 945 anti-Jewish. So who is the religion that’s really being targeted? Since Mormons fall into the Christian category, clearly Jews are still by far are the biggest targets for hate crimes in the US. Not Mormons or Muslims.

Minnie Mouse on August 31, 2006 at 10:58 pm

I suggest as strongly as possible the best book I ever read on Cults. I’ve used it over 20 years.
“Kingdom of The Cults” by Walter Martin. Comparative religions in a handbook, most sound and excellent work. Updated version here>
I would like to comment on the Mormons. My uncle and his family were Mormans. They used to play music on weekends in bars (his 3 sons)in N. Fl and S. Ga. and got a ration from an Elder. (In the bar parking lot since to “report” his errors, the Elder would have had to admit how he knew he was playing in a bar. He had driven to S. Ga so no one would see HIM. My uncle stopped going. Hated the hypocrisy. I went a couple of times. Very ritualistic compared to Presbyterian.
I thought it all pretty amusing.
Just 1 arguement by some why Mormans considered cult.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
This pertains to Law, but, all was revealed. ANY other ‘prophesies’ were not necessary. Jesus completed the Law and fullfilled the promises of the Prophets.
Smith was chased from New York to Salt Lake because the established church rejected NEW prophesies based on the Promises of the Bible and resented the numbers of Mormans that tried to take land. Of course, the risk of losing women-folk caused some friction as well.
Plus, when ever crisis arose, Mr. Smith had another encounter with his angel, Mordei(?) the messenger with NEW revelations to counter the problem. This alone eleminated Smith as a Prophet. The Testaments REQUIRED 100% accuracy. ONCE. Had to be because of the warning (Mat 7:15) Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves”.
I’m NOT judging. Just one view for your perusal.
Just some basics from the book, well worth having in these trying times.

Grateful1 on September 1, 2006 at 12:25 am

What I really wanted to comment on is the move MANY churches have pulled all accounts funding ANYTHING to do with Israel to protest their Palestinian conflicts.
I believe it was the Lutherns sold all holdings in Catapiller because they sell equipment to Israel to bulldoze Palestinian lands and TERRORIST hideouts!
I’ll find article relating to that for another post or someone here may know. I think that is far more dangerous for the Church and of course Israel than charities duping and grabbing bucks. It is ridiculous to give to ANY Arab organization. Most have stated they don’t want our tainted money anyway, yet take it.
We should set up a huge reward pool and offer protection programs for those who turn in suspious acting neighbors or relatives (as what happened in Briton). We should announce a reward and relocate and protect the families that help us like that. We need not identify them publically, just let it be known we did it. It might work in Iraq too.
The Arabs can take care of their own. International programs *=(Red Cross, etc) address our giving natures. Besides, it was documented that in the quakes, anything with USA on it was removed or repackeaged. Few new of our genorosity.

Grateful1 on September 1, 2006 at 12:40 am

I understand this is freedom of speech but why do you dislike muslims so much? It seems to me you spend most of your time attacking a religion you dont know much about. Polygamy? sorry muslims dont commit that in the Quaran it says a man may have 4 wives but he must treat them all the same that is nearly impossible that is why no man has done that or if he has he is just being another person who is careless upon their religion. The only man who ever had more than 1 wife was Mohammed because he loved them the same, but I am sure debbie has a problem with him being that he is my prophet but your VERY close minded opinions dont worry me its ignorance.

hanadi on September 1, 2006 at 12:47 am

have to agree with KOAJaps regarding the religious aspects of this thread.
Patriot USA posted “Neither the Koran nor the BOM have the support of history or archeology, they are nothing except the musings of Joseph Smith, who had a shady past as a treasure seeker who raised an army to defend his LDS beliefs, and Muhammad, who was a raider of caravans (land pirate),and raised an army to advance Islam at the point of the sword.”
The fact is, no matter how strong your faith is in your individual belief system, there is a reason it’s refered to as faith. There is not a single one that can be definitively proven as absolute fact, or fiction. Sure regarding the Christian faith, the dead sea scrolls presented scientific proof that the text of the bible was indeed of ancient in it’s origins. But on the other hand, proving that a document is ancient, does not automatically prove the contents to be factual historical accounting.
Consider this, Plato’s original dialogues refering to Atlantis were written around 360 BC, were safeguarded and preserved. The accounts (which were to have actually occurred 9000 years prior to Plato’s time, and writing)indicate this to be a factual accounting. Although the the idea of Atlantis actually existing is appealing, no one’s been able to prove that it did in fact exist, and most people consider it nothing more than a very attractive myth. There is no question that these documents are ancient and authentic writings of Plato, but that in and of itself is not sufficient to prove that Alantis did in fact exist.
This concept in terms of Atlantis is an easy thing to grasp, not so (to some) when it comes to the bible. What differentiates the two is faith, not fact, faith…but no matter how strong ones faith is, it is a personal thing, and not something one can force another to accept. All religious belief systems are based on faith in the teachings of those before them passed down through time, and the belief, based on that faith, that their path is the one true path to eternal salvation.
If one could offer physical, tangible, solid, undeniable proof, to show one absolute and specific path as THE ONE way, faith would no longer be needed, and there would be nothing to maintain the differences we see now regarding religion. But no one can, Christians believe that God gave Moses the 10 commandments carved on stone tablets on Mount Sinai, but unfortunately those tablets have vanished so cannot be held up as proof. Mormons believe their founder discovered golden plates with ancient scriptures, but can’t offer those plates up as difinitive proof. Muslims believe Mohammad was personally given Allah’s words to pass on to the world, and feel their book is unaltered from that time, but this really doesn’t offer any physical solid proof of fact. Conflicting beliefs based on faith in something intangible and unprovable, all believing their way is the only way, with nothing more compelling than their own strong personal faith to show as proof.
It’s an impossible battle that can’t be won, each believing the other is wrong, none able to definitively prove they are right and some unable even to consider accepting that those who don’t share the same beliefs, feel just as strongly that their own beliefs are the truth. Too bad everyone can’t just accept the futility of fighting and hating over it and accept the fact that in the end someone might be right…but honestly no one really KNOWS for sure.

PsychoKat on September 1, 2006 at 1:33 am

Too bad my first comments didn’t post. I don’t want to repeat all of them.
My main point was that Mormons are not Christians. That does not mean that they are not nice, law abiding citizens of this great republic. They differ in beliefs that the Church has for centuries declared that a person must believe in order to be a Christian.
First, a Christian must believe in one G-d, eternally existent in three persons. While this may seem contradictory, there is an attempt to explain how this can be resolved. Space does not permit me to explain it here.
Second, a Christian must believe that Jesus is the Son of G-d (Son of G-d is another name for the Messiah–see Psalm 2). Jesus is G-d come to earth and taking on human flesh and living a human life. He is crucified by the Romans as part of G-d’s plan to atone for humanity’s sins against G-d. Again, there is more that space does not permit me to explain.
Third, to become a Christian, one must repent of their sins and place their faith in the atoning death of Jesus. Consequently, the convert undergoes a moral change from a rebel against
G-d to a person who wants and does what G-d commands.
A Mormon does not believe any of these things. As a previous writer has referred to “The Kingdom of the Cults” as a resource. I will also refer you to his organization’s website, Dr. Martin died many years ago, but his organization continues.
Unlike many of the previous writers, I am theologically trained with a M.Div. and I have summarized Christianity for those who may not have any real familiarity with it. One previous writer thinks that Jesus teachings can be summed up as love. It goes way beyond that. The Good Samaritan was not communicating truth. He was caring for the physical needs of a total stranger. The truth obviously upsets writers like Jon and Doc. Sorry guys, but Mormons are not Christians. I don’t expect Debbie to know the difference because she isn’t a Christian (she is Jewish and is open about that), but many of you should know what a Christian believes. As for Jon and Doc, it may be helpful to learn what the Christian faith teaches, whether you accept it or not, seeing how that Christianity is the majority religion in this country. Knowledge won’t hurt anyone.

Loser on September 1, 2006 at 1:44 am

Debbie writes an article that states Mormons give aid to Islamic Charities and Islamic people. After the Tsunami, many Christian organizations gave to Islamic charities and people. This is not news and a matter of applying gospel doctrine to help those less fortunate. Unfortunately, Islamic terrorists do not care about their own people. Iraq is proof of that statement. Terrorists are killing thousands. Islamic terrorists kill more Moslems than anybody else. Most organizations gave food and clothing to include the LDS Church. However, this produces a windfall for the Islamic terrorists. This material they no longer have to purchase to ìsaveî their own people as if they actually cared. If it wasnít for the US and the many Christian and Jewish donations, the death toll would be even higher. Mainly because those that are completely ruthless (Islamic terrorists), could care less about those that are suffering and dying. Islamic Terrorists are also masters of propaganda and they have a willing press to publish this information. If the US, its charitable organizations, and others did not donate and give support, the Islamic terrorists would point out this lack of support for Moslems, thereby proving a point that the West is decadent and does not help those Moslems in need. Islamic Terrorists would rather a million Muslims die than spend one penny for charity to their own people. They want the money for weapons to kill Westerners, which include all Christians and Jews. The real question one may ask is why doesnít Islamic terrorists and Islamic governments help their own people? Moslems have all that oil money. Yet that money buys weapons. That leaves the US, Mormons/Christians, Jews, etc. to alleviate the suffering of the poor Moslems who will be killed anyway by the Islamic Terrorists because they are not Islamic enough for them.

InsanePsychotic on September 1, 2006 at 1:47 am

BTW, why are so many “good” Christians using this article to attack and disparage Mormons?
Could it be that they plan their own Jihad against Mormons after the Islamic Threat is defeated. Defeating the Islamic Threat might be hard to do in a divided house.

InsanePsychotic on September 1, 2006 at 1:54 am

My responses to LoserÔø?s post about Christianity.
Loser says: First, a Christian must believe in one G-d, eternally existent in three persons.
I say: Since the Nicene Creed was first adopted in A.D. 325, it seems clear that there were many Christians in the first centuries following the resurrection of Christ who did not use it. Those who oppose calling the Latter-day Saints “Christians” need to explain whether Peter and Paul are “Christians,” since they lived and practiced Christianity at a time when there was no Nicene Creed, and no Trinitarianism in the current sense. ( )
Loser says: Second, a Christian must believe that Jesus is the Son of G-d
I say: Latter-day Saints have 13 articles for the faith:
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
Loser says: Third, to become a Christian, one must repent of their sins and place their faith in the atoning death of Jesus.
I say: further referencing from the 13 articles of faith:
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Loser says: A Mormon does not believe any of these things.
I say: Does the following mean anything to you Loser? Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Exodus 20:16
Loser says: I am theologically trained with a M.Div.
I say: Seems like you missed the semester on comparative religion, or simply are too ignorant about the various sects of Christianity to really know what you are talking about. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who references Walter Martin and his fraudulent ministry and life to defend their Christian beliefs has absolutely ZERO credibility when it comes to talking about religion. The South Park episodes are more truthful than Walter Martin ever cared to be.

jon on September 1, 2006 at 2:53 am

My thoughts to Grateful1
Grateful says: (referencing Mat 5:18) This pertains to Law, but, all was revealed. ANY other ‘prophesies’ were not necessary. Jesus completed the Law and fullfilled the promises of the Prophets.
I say: So do we disregard the Book of Revelation? DidnÔø?t those prophesies contained within come after these words were uttered? How do you rectify that with the Nicene Creed? If there are no NEW prophesies then how did this information come to the Church in 325 AD? What gives? Please help me to understand since you said Ôø?all was revealed, any other prophesies were not necessary.Ôø?
Grateful says: The Testaments REQUIRED 100% accuracy,
I say: I assume this is somehow referencing Deuteronomy 18: 21-22.
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
That being said I ask you the following:
Numbers 25:13 Moses says: Ôø? And he (Phinehas) shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.Ôø?
However in Hebrews 7:11-12 we read: If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
So what gives does Phinehas have an everlasting priesthood or not? Did Moses mess this one up?
2 Kings 20:1-7 Was Isaiah a false prophet? I believe he said Ôø?Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not liveÔø? However didnÔø?t he live another 15 years? False prophet?
Here are some more:
The Lord told David that the men of Keilah “will deliver thee up [to Saul]” (1 Samuel 23:12). This did not happen, however, because David fled from the city (verses 13-14).
The Lord said through Elisha that the combined armies of Israel, Judah and Edom would “smite every fenced city” of Moab and that he would “deliver the Moabites also into your hand.” But one city, Kir-hareseth, was not taken. When Mesha, the Moabite king, sacrificed his son on the city wall, the Israelites left and went home. The prophecy was not fulfilled because the Israelites would not cooperate with the Lord’s wishes.
Through Ezekiel, the Lord declared that the Lebanese city of Tyre would be destroyed by the Babylonian king Nebuchadrezzar, never to be rebuilt (Ezekiel 26, especially verses 4, 7, 12, 14). Though Nebuchadrezzar laid siege against Tyre from 598 to 586 B.C., he was never able to take the city. The Lord then told Ezekiel that, in compensation for his not taking Tyre, Nebuchadrezzar would be given the land of Egypt, (Ezekiel 29:17-10). Its people would be slain and its rivers dry up (Ezekiel 30:10-12; 32:11-15) and the land of Egypt would remain uninhabited for forty years (Ezekiel 29:11-13). But though Nebuchadrezzar defeated an Egyptian army in battle, he never conquered Egypt either.
Isaiah, in his prophesy against Babylon (Isaiah 13:1), declared that the Medes would slay men, women and children and that Babylon would “be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation” (Isaiah 13:17-20). In 539 B.C., Cyrus, king of the Medes and Persians, took Babylon without bloodshed, and made it one of the principal cities of his empire. Babylon remained inhabited for centuries afterward.
So I ask, are all these fellows false prophets? How do you rectify this?
Grateful, like Loser quotes the Ôø?greatÔø? Walter Martin. I reiterate my earlier post about this fellow and his Ôø?ministry.Ôø? (see above)
Below are some references about Walter Martin, for those who don’t know him, and are thinking of checking him out, here is some information that I think you should know.

jon on September 1, 2006 at 3:30 am

Not sure where you got your information on Mormons. Nearly every Christian I know considers them a cult offshoot of Christianity. Perhaps a little googling would reveal why.
I know quite a few Jewish people who get confused about the many different religious beliefs of the many different Christian denominations etc. Ones like all “Christians believe everyone should turn the other cheek…” and many others. Most of which simply are not true. I’m no theological scholar but I do know some. I have studied the New Testament and also learned from my many Christian friends.

Phoenix on September 1, 2006 at 6:32 am

I think I can probably speak for most of the people who write comments on this site, that we are not particularyly anti-Muslim per se but anti-terrorism and those that use their religion to further this cause. I read a very good article yesterday by a Muslim, can’t remember his name at the moment, in the Washington Post and on his Counterterrorism blog. He basically said that many Muslims came to America to get away from Sharia law, not to start it here. He also said that Muslims in America should stop whining about a supposed “backlash” and root out the radicals in their mosque. There are quite a few very patriotic muslims in America, they are the ones that help the government stop these terrorism plots. They are excellent informants who have helped in numerous cases, Lodi, Lackawana and Portland to name a few. Not to mention the British discovered the recent plot with the help of a fellow Muslim. Now the challenge to the Muslim community is to praise these types of people rather than ridicule them for “damaging” Muslim’s image. If Muslim organizations like CAIR and ISNA came out and said terrorism is wrong NO MATTER WHAT and actually helped get rid of the radicals, then most Americans would have no problem with Muslims. Instead of CAIR saying thank goodness the British caught those terrorists before they killed hundreds of people, they were worried about extra security around their mosques for an imagined “backlash”. As I posted earlier, the most recent FBI hate crime statistics for 2004 are roughly as follows; 95 anti-Christian, 157 anti-Muslim and 945 anti-Jewish. This is out of the whole nation of almost 300 million people in the US. So 157 is a very small number. In fact there have been quite a few horrific terrorist attacks in Iraq over the past year targeting Muslims by Muslims that have caused close to 157 deaths, just in one day. So we Americans are not anti-Muslim, anti-terrorist. Maybe many people refer to the terrorists as Muslims because 99.99% of recent attacks throughout the world in the past 10 years have been committed by Muslims. We understand Muslims in America cannot control the actions of Muslims all over the world but you can control those that want to spread terrorist acts or support in your mosque. If Muslims in America and I’m not referring to you specifically, but if they want Sharia law, then they should go somewhere where Sharia law is practiced because it is directly against our Constitution. Trying to replace Sharia with the Constitution, like CAIR wants to do, is wanting to committ treason, plain and simple. This is what most of us are against.

Minnie Mouse on September 1, 2006 at 7:36 am

Debbie, Here are a few pages to look at concerning the Mormons and what they believe. Please take a look at these and make up your own mind.
From Scott Bidstrup, a former member of the Mormon Church:
There are just too many links on Mormonism to list here. This could go on forever!
Also, Debbie, don’t forget that Orrin Hatch, while I like him very much personally and politically, voted to confirm Ruth “Buzzy” Ginzberg for the Supreme Court. Possibly the most atrocious appointee in many decades if not ever to be put on the Supreme Court. Need I go into her beliefs?
I’m not attacking you, I just think you are very wrong about the Mormon religion. Otherwise, I agree with your article completely. The funding of Islamic terrorism is an outrage no matter who is doing it! The photo of Haley Barbour with Islamic Relief’s Yousef Abdallah also turns my stomach.

Phoenix on September 1, 2006 at 8:00 am

Just to add to what Minnie Mouse said, I noticed you got very angry about Muslims being profiled at airports in another thread on this site and I snapped at you a bit for it. But if I were Muslim, I would actually be FOR profiling for my OWN safety while flying. I don’t understand why you don’t see that.

Phoenix on September 1, 2006 at 8:11 am

The Mormons aren’t the only people gullible enough to donate to Muslim “charities.” There are plenty of Catholics and other Christians who buy the Muslims’ victim act. If you look into the history of Islam, victimhood seems to be a central node in the Muslim character, as Muslim leaders through the centuries have always had a gripe about how they were treated or what they are owed, starting with Mohammed’s grievance against his hometown of Mecca, which fueled his early campaigns. Debbie’s column should be a wake-up call to Mormons and anyone else who donates to Muslim causes.
As for the whole Mormon Christianity issue, many people feel Mormons aren’t Christians because Christians worship Jesus as God, one and the same, while Mormons believe Jesus is an inferior, created deity, and they are in fact forbidden to pray to Jesus, being commanded to pray only to the Father, who is seen as a separate being. Why is this a big deal to Christians? Because from the very start of Christianity, Jesus the Son and the Father were considered one being, not two. Check the beginning of the Gospel of John if you need confirmation, among other New Testament passages. Then there’s the polygamy issue, which only changed because Congress made it a condition of Utah becoming a state. Jesus’ policy in the Gospels can be summed up as “one life, one wife.” Polygamy flies in the face of that, and it denies the dignity of women, which despite what you may have heard in feminism 101 class, is actually one of the central issues that distinguished Christianity in the ancient world. Then there’s the question of historicity. Despite what other posters here have said, Christianity and Judaism have a great deal of historical verification from “outside” sources. The stone tablets of the law given Moses aren’t still around because it’s been, what, 3,000 or more years since they appeared. Yet, there clearly was a time when the temple in Jerusalem held the Ark of the Covenant, before the temple was finally destroyed by Rome. Joseph Smith was supposedly handed golden tablets in the 1800s, but no one ever saw them. Combine that with the warnings of Jesus against false prophets, and it’s easy to see why Joseph Smith was under a cloud of suspicion in many people’s eyes. In its early days, Mormonism was definitely a cult. It had all the classic signs: separatism, a clearly “outsider” doctrine that denies prevailing doctrine, and a charismatic leader to whom was ascribed divine authority. Christianity was never a cult because, while its leader was clearly a charismatic/divine figure, the Christians sought to immerse themselves in the culture around them, and their doctrine was seen (at least by Christians) as a fulfillment, not a denial of, Jewish doctrine. Nowadays, Mormonism is too widespread to really be considered a cult, but there can be a case made that they aren’t really Christian, despite the name of the church.
Now, according to some people here, saying all this makes me an uneducated, right-wing nut job. If that’s so, then I wear the badge proudly. Facts are facts, and all the huffing and puffing by Muslims and Mormons won’t change them.

mechmorph on September 1, 2006 at 8:14 am

mechmorph, in a word AMEN!!!
I hate to get into deep theological discussions mainly because it takes so much foundation work to really get to the main points of contention. I CAN do it but I don’t like to do it at all. Again, well said!

Phoenix on September 1, 2006 at 8:32 am

mechmorph, you stated “The stone tablets of the law given Moses aren’t still around because it’s been, what, 3,000 or more years since they appeared.”
Personally I find that explaination extremely difficult to accept. First off, based on what I’ve read those stone tablets were dearly treasured artifacts that were faithfully protected and cared for. Second they were carved in stone, and stone doesn’t easily break down to non-existance unless subjected to extreme errosion or stress. Third, if you look here:
You will find a photo of an ancient Egyptian stele painted on limestone that has been dated to 2625-2500 B.C. Point to note, limestone is fairly soft and tends to break down easily
Based on the biblical texts regarding the exodus, when Moses received the stone tablets with the 10 commandments. Those would date to somewhere in the range of depending on what you accept of 1290 – 1443 BC (approximately) which would make them signicantly younger that the limestone stele. Considering what was written about how treasured and cared for they were it just does not seem at all logical that they would have been abandoned and left to crumble into dust.

PsychoKat on September 1, 2006 at 9:43 am

Just an interesting point on the topic of funding the “poor Palestinians” – does anyone know how wealthy the neighboring Arab countries are? Why don’t *they* help their own?
As far as Mormonism goes – I am afraid that I know nothing about it so I cannot make any judgements or form any opinions. I will say that where there is smoke there is fire – the people that make donations (no matter which religion they are from), whether it was clothing or food or cash, should know how the money/donation is being used. How many charities come around in the US asking for donations and get asked to reveal how they are using and distributing their charity down to the last penny?
I don’t see this as a need to attack anyone or any religion. There are “good” and “bad” people everywhere. Maybe someone should ask Orrin Hatch to post a comment and clear things up once and for all??

Porty on September 1, 2006 at 9:49 am

To understand why any religion does anything it’s important to begin by understanding their theology.
Mormon theology believes a number of peoples around the world are members of the 12 Tribes, including the Arabs. They have their own prosyletizing campaign in the Middle East. That’s why despite the fact that most Mormons are conservative and pro-Israel, the Church’s positions on the middle east are not necesarilly so since they believe both Arabs and Jews have a right to Israel.
The Mormons do prosyletize among Palestinian Arabs and have Palestinian Arab members.
“PROVO ó Hanging in the window of a Palestinian antique merchant’s shop in Jerusalem’s Old City is a sign that says, “My money and my daughter go to BYU.”
Keith Johnson, Deseret Morning News
Tarek Maragha
Brigham Young University hasn’t sent students to its Jerusalem Center since 2000 because of concerns about safety in the Middle East, but a little-known scholarship program has continued to send a steady flow of young Palestinians from the Holy Land to BYU.
A number of Palestinian, Muslim and Arab parents choose to ship their money and their sons and daughters to BYU because the LDS Church-owned university’s moral values are closely aligned with Palestinian-Muslim ideals.
The unique fit between two cultures that honor large, strong families and shun immodest clothing, alcohol and premarital sex also appeals to those students who get full rides to BYU through the scholarship program.
Middle Eastern students account for 7 percent of the international students at BYU. Students from abroad make up 6 percent of BYU’s some 30,000 students.
“It’s the same doctrine, the same culture, the same values,” said Tarek Maragha, a Palestinian student from Jerusalem.”
So yes the Mormon Church knows exactly where the money is going and as with the liberal Protestant denominations they don’t care. With enough Arab members in their own ranks, some would even support Hamas.
The LDS church is not what it used to be. Pro-Israel statements cited by past Mormon figures, often in the 19th century, mean very little now. Most actual Mormons remain pro-israel but the Church leadership has other goals and that’s a focus on gaining Arab members.

sultan_knish on September 1, 2006 at 10:53 am

Ok, the lies and distortions continue, this reminds me of debating with Liberals. All you Mormon haters out there and those who think they know the religion are just like the Liberals I deal with. Stealing a line from the good liberal Al Franken I will point you out to the rest on the board: “Lies and the Lying Liars who tell them” This post is for MECMORPH and the lies he/she has put forth.
The first LIE by MECMORPH: Mormons believe Jesus is an inferior, created deity, and they are in fact forbidden to pray to Jesus, being commanded to pray only to the Father, who is seen as a separate being.
I say: What? Jesus Christ Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is Heavenly Father’s Only Begotten Son in the flesh. He is our Redeemer. Through Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father has provided a way for all people to become like Him and return to live with Him forever. We love Christ. We worship Christ. He is our example and our Savior.,8672,802-1,00.html
The second LIE by MECMORPH: Because from the very start of Christianity, Jesus the Son and the Father were considered one being, not two. Uh, have you ever heard of the Nicene Creed? 325 AD, Hello? Unless of course you are saying that Christianity started in 325 AD then if that is the case sorry.
The third LIE by MECMORPH: . Joseph Smith was supposedly handed golden tablets in the 1800s, but no one ever saw them.
I say: Amazing that so many of you continue to spew your lies and half truths without ever checking the facts. This sounds so much like the liberals that I know. Why not check the facts? Is it because you are too lazy and just don’t care? Or are you to afraid to discover the truth? Or are you just a lying liar and like to tell lies?
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken …
Oliver Cowdery David Whitmer Martin Harris
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold;…
Christian Whitmer Jacob Whitmer Peter Whitmer, Jun John Whitmer Hiram Page Joseph Smith Sen, Hyrum Smith, Samuel H. Smith
Mecmorph says: Combine that with the warnings of Jesus against false prophets, and it’s easy to see why Joseph Smith was under a cloud of suspicion in many people’s eyes.
I say: did you read my posts above about false prophets?

jon on September 1, 2006 at 11:11 am

This post is for Phoenix:
Typical anti-mormon, rather than use the official website of the LDS Church to show the beliefs of Mormons he goes to anti-lds websites.
Let’s think about that in terms we can all relate to. Let’s say that we wanted to know what the republicans core values were. Following the tact of Phoenix I would send people to or PETA, or NOW, or some other left leaning website.
Don’t you think it would be more honest to send people to the Republican National website? Hmmm
If you want to know what Mormons really believe go to this website:,6929,403-1,00.html
or this one:
quit acting like a liberal Phoenix, and start acting honestly.

jon on September 1, 2006 at 11:27 am

Jon: Conservatives are just as dishonest as liberals. Your argument becomes weaker when you add in superfluous comments.

Manatoch on September 1, 2006 at 12:16 pm

I saw some earlier queries about whether Debbie has contacted any LDS authorities about this, but I have not seen Debbie respond. So, Debbie, did you attempt to interview any member of the Presiding Bishopric about your concerns? Or do you think any aid, whether it was cash or commodities, would be improper? And finally, how would you interpret the story of the Good Samaritan as related by Jesus?

mbeesley on September 1, 2006 at 1:27 pm

I am shocked at all this hatred towards the Mormon religion posted in this blog entry. I did not know that so called Christians hated the LDS faith as I have read here.
Debbie Schlussel comments were fair as she pointed out contributions but some of the posts here were mind boggling.
I had no idea except the way the MSM treats them.

ScottyDog on September 1, 2006 at 2:31 pm

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