May 11, 2009, - 5:21 pm

Vatican, Organizers Lying About “Unexpected” Taysir Tamimi Appearance w/ Pope

By Debbie Schlussel
**** SCROLL DOWN FOR UPDATE ****
While I’m glad the Pope finally walked out AFTER–and NOT during (as he should have done)–the anti-Semitic diatribe of Sheikh Taysir Al-Tamimi (also spelled, “Tayseer Tamimi”) at an interfaith “dialogue” session in Israel, today, pardon me if I don’t buy the Vatican’s claim they didn’t know Tamimi would be part of the agenda. And pardon me if I think it’s nauseating that the Pope chose to sit by as this occurred, without walking out on this while it was occurring. And pardon me if I think it’s disgusting he shook the guy’s hand on the way out–the hand of a well-known anti-Semite and pan-terrorist inciter.
What good does it do that he walked out after? Big deal.

taysirtamimi.jpg

Pope (center) Flanked by Anti-Semitic Jihadist Sheik Taysir Al-Tamimi (far right); Haifa Chief Rabbi Shaar Yashuv Cohen is at far left

And excuse me, if I don’t believe Tamimi’s presence onstage with the Pope at this event was a surprise to anyone. The fact is that Tamimi, about whom I’ve written plenty over the years, is a well-known anti-Semite and HAMAS supporter. He got his job as chief Islamic judge when his buddy, Yasser Arafat, appointed him. He openly urged Palestinians and Christians to become homicide bombers against Jews. Shame not only on the Vatican for allowing this, but on Haifa Chief Rabbi Shaar Yashuv Cohen, who also sat onstage with this scumbag. He should have his smichah [rabbinical certification] yanked for that.
From my January 2005 column on Al-Tamimi:

“Palestine’s” Islamo-Fascist Enforcer
There’s Al-Tamimi, the Palestinian Authority’s Chief of Judges and chairman of its Islamic law high council.
He uttered these words: “Islam is escalating and cannot be resisted. I pray that Allah may tear apart America just as the Soviet Union was torn apart.”
As the chief Palestinian judge and Muslim cleric, Al-Tamimi frequently appears on Palestinian Authority Television praising homicide bombers and spreading anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and fatwas.
In 1994, Al-Tamimi said, “The Jews are destined to be persecuted, humiliated, and tortured forever, and it is a Muslim duty to see to it that they reap their due. No petty arguments must be allowed to divide us. Where Hitler failed, we must succeed.
In August 2003, Al-Tamimi, a personal friend of Yasser Arafat (who appointed him Chief Islamic Judge), was arrested for inciting terrorism. Al-Tamimi’s extremist sermons are well-known for urging attacks on Israel and calling upon Arab nations to wage war. In March 2000, Al-Tamimi delivered a hate speech during the Pope’s visit to Jerusalem, accusing Israel of “genocide” and “strangling Jerusalem.” He called on Christians to join Muslims in a jihad to oust Jews from all of Israel.
In a recent Palestinian Authority appearance, Al-Tamimi defamed late Israeli Prime Minster Golda Meir, claiming she and the Israelis conspired to burn down the Al-Aqsa Mosque [which Muslims built on top of the Jewish Temple]. He decreed Jews have no right to pray at the “Cave of the Patriarchs,” (where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are buried), one of the holiest of Jewish sites, which Al-Tamimi claims is a mosque. “Jews have no right to claim any bond or connection . . . . Jews are foreign interlopers.”

As we all know, the Vatican security–especially after an attempt on the life of Pope John Paul II–is extremely tight. Not just anyone can walk up to a podium at an event at which the Pope is speaking, must less be in the auditorium. But Tamimi was sitting just a seat away from the Pope on-stage, tonight. That didn’t happen by accident . . . nor was it a surprise, despite what organizers of this event are claiming. Do you think you or I could jump onstage, sit a seat away from the Pope and give a fiery speech onstage while the Pope listened, had we not been welcomed, pre-arranged guests and participants? Think again.
Organizers and the Vatican never said they didn’t invite Tamimi to sit onstage near the Pope. They only said he was not on the list of scheduled speakers. And that’s disgusting enough. They knew what Tamimi is about. It’s not a secret. Yet, they didn’t object to his presence onstage with the Pontiff.
Here’s what probably happened. The Vatican–which is extremely open about its support for a Palestinian nation and quick to condemn Israel at every instance (though it was remarkably silent about the Jews during the Holocaust)–agreed to the Tamimi appearance, knowing full well of his well-known background. But the Vatican probably assumed or had an agreement that Tamimi wouldn’t engage in his usual vitriol. Sadly, old habits die hard. And they knew better.
Sorry, but there’s no way I believe that an open HAMAS supporter–who has consistently sermonized from the Islamic pulpit calling on both Muslims and Christians to engage in homicide bombings against Jews–just suddenly ended up on stage a seat away from the Pope, without anyone from the Vatican knowing about it and endorsing the idea, and just suddenly ended up speaking from the podium without interruption while the Pope sat by and said nothing, nor did his Vatican minions. They’re just not that lax with Vatican security or public relations that this happened with any degree of serendipity.
This was planned. And predictable.
And that the Vatican allowed the Pope to even sit on stage with this man is beyond sickening. Shame on them.
Also while in Israel, the Pope vowed to fight anti-Semitism. But that’s all lip service when he sits quietly, politely onstage with one of the world’s most vocal, vicious anti-Semites and passively listen to his anti-Semitic utterances.
**** UPDATE: Carl in Jerusalem has extensive coverage of the Pope’s disappointing speech at “Yad VaShem,” the Israeli Holocaust Museum.

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29 Responses

Hi Debbie,
It says the objectionable material was spoken in Arabic. Did they have instantaneous translation earphones?
I also notice that the article says “Several attempts were made by Latin Patriarch in the Holy Land Fouad Twal, a Palestinian, to politely stop Tamimi. But Tamimi would not be deterred from reading his written speech, apparently prepared in advance without the knowledge of the organizers.”
Did the other guy on the stage, Haifa Chief Rabbi Shaar Yashuv Cohen, walk out or otherwise signal the problem?
[P: THAT'S ALL COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. THEY KNEW WHO TAMIMI WAS AND YET THEY ALLOWED THE POPE TO SIT ON STAGE WITH HIM AND LET HIM SPEAK. WHETHER OR NOT THEY UNDERSTOOD WHAT HE SAID IS NOT THE ISSUE. IT'S THAT IT WAS WELL KNOWN THAT HE'S THE DAVID DUKE/LOUIS FARRAKHAN OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AND YET THEY DIDN'T LET THAT STOP HIM FROM SHARING THEIR STAGE AND SPEAKING AT THE EVENT. WHAT HE SAID WAS PREDICTABLE BASED ON ALL OF HIS MANY PAST SUCH UTTERANCES, WHICH HAVE BEEN AMPLY TRANSLATED. NOT ONLY SHOULD THEY HAVE WALKED OUT THE MINUTE TAMIMI GOT TO THE PODIUM, BUT THE MINUTE HE TOOK HIS SEAT ONSTAGE. DS]

Perpetua on May 11, 2009 at 6:11 pm

You have to remember that this Pope was a Nazi. Nevermind that he was 17 years old, that was the culture from which he came. He is what he is and I don’t expect anything more from him.
Nazis are forever claiming that they were forced into it. Germans also claim they had no idea what was going on while at the same time their families were hiding Jews. Yeah, right. If as many Germans who claimed to have hid Jews actually did hide Jews, there would have been no Holocaust.

lexi on May 11, 2009 at 6:47 pm

You’re right on point again Debbie. First it was the keffiah(sp) scarf he accepted, and now this. It does say in the end times(I know you don’t believe in the New Testament. As a Jew you don’t have too.) that the head of the church, the Pope and the Vatican will betray the Jew’s and side with the Demon. The church will crumble from within. You are also correct Lexi, this Pope does come from a Nazi up bringing.

wolf2012 on May 11, 2009 at 6:58 pm

Both the Pope and Israel’s Prime Minister are committed to embracing a PA that has Tayser al Tamimi as its central figure. I don’t expect much from the Vatican but I was expecting to see more from Israel’s government. Is that who Israel wants to resume talks with, people who hate Jews and want a jihad waged against it for its destruction?
Disgusting!

NormanF on May 11, 2009 at 7:24 pm

Spot on correct Debbie. Catholics should rise up, but will only yawn. I’m still livid over this pope Benedict Arnold RAT-zinger. When he went to Turkey in 2007, he took his sandals off and prayed in a mosque, toward Mecca!! He honored Attaturk while there, the architect of the Armenian Christian genocide. John Paul II before him kissed the handbook of hating the Jews –the quran–what puke.
Real Christian apostles died to stand for the truth–this pseudo-Christian “pope” is a disgrace–leading the apostasy of deceived Christians and in the betrayal of Israel–and faithful Christians.

BB on May 11, 2009 at 8:13 pm

Debbie, there are times when I am not proud to be Catholic–THIS IS ONE OF THOSE TIMES!
The idea this Nazi (once you are, it’s for life like Islam) became Pope gets me VERY concerned. How would Pope John Paul II react? Odds are, he is turning in his grave!
[NEP: DON'T BET ON IT. POPE JOHN PAUL II REMOVED HIS SHOES, KNEELED IN, AND KISSED THE FLOOR OF SYRIA'S AL-OMAYYAD MOSQUE (WHICH MUSLIMS BUILT ON TOP OF A CHURCH THEY DESTROYED), IN DEFERENCE TO SYRIA'S ASSAD. HE PANDERED TO THIS RELIGION AND SAID THE SAME ANTI-ISRAEL STUFF AS THE CURRENT POPE. AND HE WAS THE POPE WHO ORIGINALLY SHARED THE STAGE WITH THIS SAME GUY, AL-TAMIMI, IN MARCH 2000. DS]

NEPatriot on May 11, 2009 at 9:25 pm

OK. The LIB media is slobbering over the Pope’s call for a “two-state solution” to the War Against Israel. Fine! He said it and it’s fair to report it.
What I wanna know is: Did the Pope say ANYTHING to confront the manifest policy of anti-Semitism in the Palestinian Authority and Arab League? Did the Pope say ANYTHING to confront Arab terrorism against Jews?
I’d like to think he did that, but you won’t find the LIB media reporting it. I’m sure we have Catholic readers of this blog who support Israel, so I challenge them to inform us as to what the Pope said to confront TODAY’s anti-Semitism. Bear in mind, I’m not interested in the usual European crocodile tears shed for the DEAD Jewish victim of the Holocaust that foreign dignitaries routinely display at Yad Vashem.
If the Pope didn’t directly confront those two problems for Jews everywhere (but especially in Israel), I think it’s fair to say that he’s fueling the the War Against Israel through his visit. I’m not interested in rationalization. Either the Pope confronted anti-Semitism and terrorist attacks against Jews today, or he didn’t.
I tend to share Debbie’s view that the Pope had to expect a tirade against Israel and Jews from Palestinian Muslim leaders. In 2000, when John Paul II visited Israel, he attempted a similar dialog and was met with a similar tirade from the Muslim religious leader in Jerusalem. Pope Benedict can’t pretend to be naive about this.

There is NO Santa Claus on May 11, 2009 at 10:38 pm

You are right on the spot as usual, Debbie, in what concerns this and the previous Pope –John Paul II, by the way, not only did what you’ve just described, but also kissed the Koran. I’m somewhat disappointed though that you allude in the same breath to Pious XII, a man who did much for the Jews during WWII; Ion Pacepa explains in this article http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTUzYmJhMGQ5Y2UxOWUzNDUyNWUwODJiOTEzYjY4NzI= how the myth of ‘Hitler’s Pope’ was created by KGB propagandists – the real story was the opposite of this. Also of interest: http://www.catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp
[E: WE WILL HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE ON POPE PIOUS. IT WASN'T THAT THE SOVIETS THAT PROPAGANDIZED ABOUT HIM. IT WAS HIS OWN DEEDS. HE NEVER SPOKE OUT AGAINST THE HOLOCAUST OR WHAT HITLER DID AND NEVER URGED CATHOLICS TO OPPOSE WHAT WAS GOING ON. INSTEAD, HE REMAINED SILENT OF HIS OWN VOLITION. HISTORY DIDN'T LIE ABOUT THAT, AND NEITHER DOES YAD VASHEM MUSEUM IN RIGHTFULLY CALLING HIM OUT FOR THAT. DS]

ebenezer on May 11, 2009 at 11:32 pm

[just suddenly ended up on stage a seat away from the Pope, without anyone from the Vatican knowing about it and endorsing the idea, and just suddenly ended up speaking from the podium without interruption while the Pope sat by and said nothing, nor did his Vatican minions.]
Well, if this type of argument was good enough for our President defending his presence in Jeremiah Wright’s Church, why isn’t it good enough for the Pope?
I hope everyone understands what I am _really_ saying here.

i_am_me on May 11, 2009 at 11:38 pm

Debbie, I always thought it was a mistake for Rabbis to make public appearances with other religious figures, as it tends to make them look ridiculous or at least interchangeable. But to make a public appearance with this sheik is a real sign of stupidity. I think too many people are able to get smicha, and it seems like getting a driver’s license for a certain cohort of men. Maybe they should start culling the bottom 10% and limiting the number of new rabbis, like with NYC taxi medallions.

Anonymous1 on May 11, 2009 at 11:58 pm

How did Haifa Chief Rabbi Shaar Yashuv Cohen wind up on the stage? Wouldn’t he have know about this bad guy, even more than the Pope?
[P: I ATTACKED HIM, TOO. PERHAPS YOU SKIPPED OVER THAT PART. DS]

Perpetua on May 12, 2009 at 12:09 am

Debbie, what I caught was a remark not reported (as yet) that he accused Israel’s government of killing Arab civilians as a result of a Halacha-rendered decision, as if the Chief Rabbis made it a religious act to do so. And what did he himself do last month?
http://myrightword.blogspot.com/2009/05/tamimi-is-pal-problem-one-of-projection.html

Yisrael Medad on May 12, 2009 at 4:36 am

The pope is at worst a closet nazi and at best a dhimmi. Dhimmis are intimidated by and scared to death of the mohammedans.

norman on May 12, 2009 at 9:47 am

norman, you nailed it. The pope is a dhimmi.
Now the pope’s peeps are saying he wasn’t really a Hitler Youth and that he deserted Hitler’s Army at the end of the war. What a convenient time to desert.
Has this little Nazi ever atoned for his sins?

lexi on May 12, 2009 at 10:07 am

As a traditional Catholic I’ve got to step in with some comments.
First, Benedict does not believe nor practice Catholicism. The church he heads believes and practices a combination of condenmed heresies (condenmed by Catholic councils down through the ages) and made up doctrines that fit the ideologies of the infidels who were the most vocal at Vatican II.
Secondly, Jews should be thrilled that Benedict and his predecessor, JPII decided that the Catholic Church was no longer in the business of proclaiming what the church had always taught which was it is the church instituted by Christ and that only through Christ and his church could one obtain eternal salvation. That means they decided anyone, believing anything and doing anything need not worry about their eternal fate. All are going to heaven.
To Benedict, as with JPII, every religion, or no religion, is on an equal basis and needs to be respected and honored. Thus, he will sit down with, pray with, and hold in high esteems anyone no matter how much they hate Jews or Catholics.
Secondly, I disagree that the Vatican did little during the Holocaust. I believe many Jews were saved through their efforts. If they had more openly condenmed the Nazi’s, more people probably would have been slaughtered. We will never know but to claim the Vatican did nothing to help the Jews is not true.
So the reality now is the church head by Benedict is not the true Catholic Church. As Paul VI said, the smoke of Satan had entered the church, and he helped allow Satan to take complete control of the hearts and minds of the leaders of the church who subsequently took hold of the hearts and minds of the majority of those calling themselves Catholic.
The true Catholic Church still teaches that the Messiah has come and he is Christ. Either one believes that is true or they do not but the fact remains, the church Benedict heads doesn’t believe in any kind of truth.
[LILLY: POPE PIOUS SAID NOTHING. HE REMAINED SILENT ON THE HOLOCAUST. YOUR OPINION OR SOMEONE'S CLAIM THAT THE VATICAN SAVED JEWS WON'T CHANGE THAT. IT'S A FACT, AND I CHALLENGE YOU TO FIND ME ONE SPEECH IN WHICH HE CONDEMNED HITLER OR THE NAZIS. YES, SOME VATICAN OFFICIALS SAVED JEWS, BUT NOT WITH PIOUS' BLESSING. A GREAT PORTRAYAL OF THE SAINTLY VATICAN OFFICIAL, MSGR. HUGH O'FLAHERTY--WHO SAVED THOUSANDS OF JEWS (AND OTHERS)--IS THE 1983 TV MOVIE, "THE SCARLET AND THE BLACK," WHICH I HIGHLY RECOMMEND. http://www.amazon.com/Scarlet-Black-Gregory-Peck/dp/B00008J2PG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1242149646&sr=1-1
STILL, WE CANNOT FORGET THAT THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT AND MANY MORE OF THE 6,000,000 MILLION JEWISH AND 5,000,000 OTHER LIVES STOLEN BY THE NAZIS WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED HAD THE POPE COME OUT AGAINST THEM. BUT INSTEAD, HE DELIBERATELY CHOSE TO REMAIN SILENT. AND THAT IS HOW HE WILL ALWAYS BE REMEMBERED. DS]

Lilly on May 12, 2009 at 12:48 pm

TO: Lilly
When Paul entered the temple displaying all of the gods to whom worship was being conducted, what was his response? He went over to the one god that was presented as unknown as said to those people, “I am here to declare to you the one and only God whom you do not know.” That action by Paul demontrated many sentiments. He was not willing to violate the first and second levitical 10 commandments of God by paying respect or esteem to any other god(s). Karol Wojtyla and Joseph Ratzinger have prayed and worshipped with Muslims in the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, Turkey thereby replacing the God of the Bible, and His Son with a pre Islam Babylonian pagan moon god Allah. While making the fraudulent claim that they are the vicar of Christ, they worship, pray to, and hold in high esteem a so-called god that says “God has no son.” That blasphemous claim is also the Arabic insription on the side of the blaphemous Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.
Your claim about the haulocaust is not true, with all due respect. Eugenio Pacelli (your pope pius XII) signed a 1939 Concordant with Adolf Hitler blessing his “final solution” to the “Jew problem.” In the same way that Eugenio Pacelli blessed Hitler, Karol Wojtyla blessed and kissed the vile Koran upon Yasser Arafat’s third visit to the Vatican in the 1990′s. This is the same vile book that readsm, “God has no son.” Yasser Arafat (a direct descendant of Herod)participated in worship in ROMAN Catholicism blasphemous Mass.
With all due respect, ROMAN Catholicism is a cult. It is not Christian. They operate from a very cladestine platform. They have mislead their own congregant for years by conducting their nefarious deeds in a Christian pretense. They misrepresent God, His Son, Mary, the Bible, and so on. Just recently, in March of this year, they rewrote the Bible, called it the Hindu Bible , referred to it as a “version” of the Bible while changing the Word of God into a lie with Hindu chants, and traditions. Secretly, for 15 years, so-called Hindu “scholars” worked with the Vatican dwellers to rewrite the Bible. You may want to consult the Word of God to find out what God Himself says about those who alter His Word.
When he was the Prefect of the Office of the Doctrine of the Faith, Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to his priestly hierarchy with the directive to 1) Keep secret homosexual and pedophile behaviour, and 2) You are never bound to tell the truth. Anyone (perpetrator or victim) who spoke of it faced excommunication from the cult. So-Ratzinger was intructing his priests to lie, and obstruct justice. Bishops and Cardinals in this country were doing what their very sick head was telling them to do: To keep homosexuality and pedophilia secret, they were moving these perverts around. In spite of what you are told, it is ongoing.
In 1962, just 40 years prior to Joseph Ratzinger’s directive, Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani sent a direcive to the ROMAN Catholic priests direcing them to 1) Keep secret homosexual behaviour, and 2) Sex with brute animals.
I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your cult’s hierarchy is replete with homosexuals, pedophiles, those who have sex with brute animals, anti Semites, they don’t like freedom of conscience, they don’t like free will, and they are anti anything that goes against their own perversions.
ROMAN Catholicism is a cult. They are not a Christian institution. They practice necromany, pray to other gods, worship idols, misrepresent Christ, misrepresent God, misrepresent the Bible, have another head other than Jesus Christ.
For the last 10 years (under Karol Wojtyla and Joseph Ratzinger) Israel has had to endure threats from threat peddlers like David Bartholdi, a medium for the Vatican. They are “demanding” 14 sites as Christian holy sites that they deem belongs to the Vatican. IF they get those sites, it would legitimize their false claim that they are Christian while advancing the fraudulent notion that they replace the Jews as God’s chosen people.
Of course, they have a similar lie directed primarily at Christians. Ratzinger has echoed the same lie as previous ROMAN Catholic cult heads. He has said that, “The ROMAN Catholic church is the one true apostolic church out of whose pale there is no salvation.” That is a complete and utter lie. Christians know it.
Given the institutionalized pathological lying nature of ROME’s ethos, why in the world would anyone believe anything they say.
There is one thing this citizen has observed about the ROMAN Catholic cult as it relates to strategy: They mutate their encounters based upon the circumstances in which they negotiate or place their interests. Once they are comfortable with their gain, they always emerge as the authority in any relationship in which they superintend their communion of evil.

FulghumInk on May 12, 2009 at 11:46 pm

I apologize for the typos and a misspelled word in my previous post. I hit post by mistake. There is no edit feature. The brain is faster than the hand. Thank God!!!

FulghumInk on May 12, 2009 at 11:55 pm

TO: lilly
You wrote: “To Joseph Ratzinger, as with Karol Wojtyla, every religion or no religion, is on an equal basis and needs to be respected and honored.Thus he will sit down with, pray with, and hold in high esteem anyone no matter how much they hate Jews or Catholics.” [please hold me in high esteem and respect me since I don't recognize the title of pope-this citizen prefers to call them the name they had all of their lives before a fraudulent name was given to them]
God is not an ecumenical being. The Bible is not an ecumenical book. When Moses descended from Mount Sinai and saw the Jews “respecting, holding in high esteem, pray with, and praying to another god” he caused the first “church split.” Those who didn’t recognize the God who said, “I am God, there is none like me” took sides with that which opposes God. They were destroyed. The people who were saved were those who knew God. Jesus Himself said, “I know my sheep. My sheep know me.” No Christian would ever follow your pope into a Mosque and recognize, pay homage to, worship, pray to, or even call on a god who is not God. No Christian accepts the ecumenical lie that all faiths lead to the same god.
It is the Bible that defines what a Christian is or is not-not popes or their Vatican dwellers replete with homosexuals, pedophiles, and those who have sex with brute animals.
Is Ratzinger paying homage to, holding in high esteem, accepting as equal the Jews when for the last 10 years he and his Vatican dwellers have issued incessant threats against Israel and Yesheva Dean Mordechai Goldstein? You, my dear, have bought into the deception of a cult.
It is indeed engaging that we know everything that goes on in Israel as it relates to the exposure of Josepth Ratzinger. There is no such exposure during his visit with his Muslim pals. Given ROME’s centuries of an ongoing platform of secrecy, lying, and deception do you even wonder what they discussed behind closed doors?
There is something that all need to be aware of: The ROMAN Catholic Nazi machine had Muslim units that worked with Hitler to kill the Jews. Both have evil intents and purposes as it relates to death and destruction. Both have similar goals as it relates to Israel. Both have common endowments that can be traced back to Babylon, and the Chaldean mysteries.
There are no political institutions that hate the Jews more than Islam, and their sister cult-ROMAN Catholicism.
In ROMAN Catholicism, mysteries are mysteries because it is the ROMAN Catholic church that fabricates them. Because they are the ones who fabricate them, they are the only ones who can interpret them through their own fabricated doctrines, theology, canonical laws, catechism, traditions, rites, and rituals.
The simplicity of the Word of God is all one needs to know of the God who said of Himself, “I AM.”

FulghumInk on May 13, 2009 at 4:11 am

The Pope made some off the wall comments that deserved to be flagged. However, may Al-Tamimi spend eternal life in hell, being punk-ed daily by a thousand goats, for an endless cycle of hemorrhoidal torment.

Jackson Pearson on May 13, 2009 at 8:19 am

Fulghumink:
I realize Catholics can be cult member-like what with their eating flesh and drinking blood and all but don’t you think you’re a bit over the top?
That said, this pope’s Nazi colors are coming through.

lexi on May 13, 2009 at 10:03 am

Debbie: With all due respect to you, no one can say for certainty what would have happened if Pope Pius had spoken out against the Nazi’s. It’s all conjecture.
Fulghumlnk: I knew my comments would cause a reaction. However, this isn’t the place to argue Christian theology.
What I also said was JPII and Benedict Ratzinger are HERETICS. In other words, false popes and false Christians. They will have a lot to answer for on judgement day.

Lilly on May 13, 2009 at 5:50 pm

TO: lexi and lilly
Lilly, you may have a comprehension problem. Facts are facts. Truth is truth. There is nothing theological in my post. Everything is true. What is theological about homosexuality, pedophilia, or sex with brute animals? What is theological about Karol Wojtyla kissing and blessing the vile Koran? What is theological about your popes worshipping in the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, Turkey?
You make a very shallow statement to Debbie as it relates to Eugenio Pacelli and “speaking out.” There is no conjecture where there is blatant disregard for the genocide of a whole people. He knew, and was well aware of what his pal Hitler was going to do, and did. That is a matter of indisputable history. You can act as an apologist for Hitler and Pacelli if you so desire, but truth is truth my dear.
lexi, Instead of shallow one liners, why don’t you refute with facts.
Lilly, there is no conjecture about Eugenio Pacelli. He signed a 1939 Concordant with Hitler. In that Concordant, he blessed Hitler’s “final solution” to the “Jew problem.”
Nothing I have posted is “over the top.” Everything is spot on.
Nice try though.

FulghumInk on May 13, 2009 at 6:14 pm

“STILL, WE CANNOT FORGET THAT THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT AND MANY MORE OF THE 6,000,000 MILLION JEWISH AND 5,000,000 OTHER LIVES STOLEN BY THE NAZIS WOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED HAD THE POPE COME OUT AGAINST THEM. BUT INSTEAD, HE DELIBERATELY CHOSE TO REMAIN SILENT. AND THAT IS HOW HE WILL ALWAYS BE REMEMBERED. DS]
YesÖthings would have been much worse. Speaking out would have done nothing. The Vatican would only have become another target of the maniacal Adolf. Once the Vatican City and Church were no longer “neutral” no help even behind the scenes could have been given to he Jews. The focus would then have been on saving themselves.
The Catholic Church (Vatican City) is the longest running government body with over 2,000 years of skill at surviving all kinds of other governments that have risen and fallen around it. Many have been hostile. I am satisfied that the help offered the Jews, at the time, in the context and reality of those times, was all that could be offered. The role of the Church is not predominantly social justice but one of overseeing the “flock”, protecting that flock, as Jesus, Himself, commandedÖuntil the end of time.
I will have to leave the Debbie’s Jewish readership behind here in my next statement. Without any knowledge of the New TestamentÖ it would be hard to follow my next assertion. For the Evangelical and the “traditional” Catholic (free-wheeling) I can demonstrate, right from the New Testament itself, the “carefulness” of the Catholic Church that has existed from the Apostolic times, 2,000 years ago!
The Apostle Peter, the “rock” on whom Jesus built His Church writes to the early Church (1 Peter), sending greetings from the chosen one, Mark, who was at BabylonÖcodeÖfor Rome. The followers of Christ were being hunted down. No need to draw attention to the growing congregation in Rome. So Peter aware of their vulnerability greets them but “hides” them as well.
Debbie looks for WW II Catholic Church documentation commanding help for the Jews and condemnation of the Nazis. Likely at the time there was none. Word of mouth is how the Church operates in dangerous times.
Like recently when Russia threatened Poland. Pope JP II gave the order to the Catholic clergy in Poland to aid the Solidarity movement under “pain of sin”. If the clergy didn’t helpÖfor them it would be a mortal sin. No one, who dies with mortal sin on their souls, has a chance of seeing the vision of God. Hell is their reward. The only clue one has that maybe this order was given, was by the few who disclosed their knowledge of it after Russia and Communism were no longer a threat to Poland, and from then current actions of JP II himself. It is now common knowledge that Pope John Paul II threatened Russia that if Poland was invaded he would step down from the papacy and return to Poland as a cardinal. Russia found themselves unable to suppress the Solidarity movement from afar, and unable to invade Poland because that would have generated universal condemnation. And the sacrificial return of the hometown hero.
Paul writes to a regional church that he didn’t want to commit some things to paper and inkÖbut that he would communicate them fully when he was in their presence. Again, dangerous times. Protect the flock. Don’t draw attention to them.
The times are evil and the Church communicates with its own style in those times.
FulghumInkÖI read some of your remarks. What a laugh. How is Jack Chick doing? Lilly is a separated Catholic, the Catholic Church is not her Church. She’s a traditionalist. Mother Teresa wouldn’t survive her “Are you a Catholic test?” She sees the see of Peter as vacant. Hello, Gerry Matatics.
FulghumInk, I suggest you heed the commandment, the one about bearing false witness, because you are talking about individuals and interpreting their individual behaviour through your self-serving lens of hate. And fanning spurious rumors. Some other statements you made are uncorroborated outright lies. Sources pleaseÖproduce documentation. You conspiracy types are all the same. Everything is secrets and whispers.
The Catholic Church is God’s Church on earth. Whether you recognize it or not. There are many signsÖbut your mind is closed. Still that won’t mitigate God’s justice. Feel alone in this world? You are.
LexiÖeating the sacrificial lamb is important both at the time of Moses and nowÖat the Sacrifice of the Mass occuring daily without which we become victims of the Destroying Angel. The OT sacrifices were a lead up to the ultimate sacrifice of a SonÖwho paid a debt for all of mankind, to a Father, to bring complete atonement for all sin, for all time.
I still have to respond to the errors of Shyguy at some pointÖbut this will have to do for nowó

The Canadien on May 13, 2009 at 8:58 pm

I will accept Debbie‚Äôs challenge; I quote from the book by Rabbi David G. Dalin, ‚ÄòThe Myth of Hitler‚Äôs Pope‚Äô: ‚ÄòOn January 19, 1940, at the pope‚Äôs instruction, Vatican Radio and the Vatican newspaper L‚ÄôOsservatore Romano revealed to the world ‚Äòthe dreadful cruelties of uncivilized tyranny‚Äô the Nazis were inflicting on Jewish and Catholic Poles. The following week, the Jewish Advocate of Boston reported on the Vatican radio broadcast, praising its ‚Äòoutspoken denunciation of Nazi atrocities in Nazi Poland’ (‚Ķ) In March 1940, Pius granted an audience with Joachim von Ribbentrop, (‚Ķ) the only high-ranking Nazi to visit the Vatican. The German‚Äôs understanding of Pius position was clear: Ribbentrop chastised the pope for siding with the Allies, whereupon Pius began reading from a long list of German atrocities. ‚ÄòIn the burning words he spoke to Herr Ribbentrop‚Äô, the New York Times reported on March 14, Pius ‚Äòcame to the defense of Jews in Germany and Poland.‚Äô (page 74)
There are many more examples. I myself am a traditional Catholic, and agree with much The Canadien said. But I have this to say: if you were in risk of being sent to death in a concentration camp and someone could save you, would you rather he spoke out against your oppressor instead? The truth is Pious XII saved lots of Jews by issuing baptism certificates, hiding them etc. And, by the way, how much of the disgusting anti-Semitism displayed by many a traditional Catholic is not due to a grudge against the Jewish community for its lack of recognition of Pious’ role in saving thousands of Jews? Notice too how people who attacks Pious XII usually focus on his alleged silence and seldom do they mention his lack of action in actually saving Jews – because his ‘silence’, or ‘relative silence’ (‘he could have spoken out against the Nazis more often’, or ‘he didn’t speak out enough against them’, they would say) is a much more fertile soil for this half-true to grow; after all, he could indeed have made more public pronouncements against Nazism (if he made a thousand of them, he still could have made a thousand and one). Pacepa co-workers at the KGB were clever enough to understand that nuance, and to take advantage of it.
I don’t think this is the proper place for discussions about the legitimacy of the post-conciliar Catholic Church and popes, or the status of traditional Catholics (sedevacantists or otherwise); the brutal fact is that no pope up to and including Pious XII would have kissed the Koran, or attended ecumenical meetings with Hinduist, Buddhist, Muslim or Jewish authorities. The post-conciliar popes do these things all the time. And FulghumInk reminds me of (Anglican) C. S. Lewis’ Screwtape making a toast with wine made of different types of Pharisees (Screwtape is a demon, so he refers to God or Jesus as ‘the Enemy’): ‘Some were all rules and relics and rosaries; others were all drab clothes, long-faces, and petty traditional abstinences from wine and cards or the theatre. Both had in common their self-righteousness and the almost infinite distance between their actual outlook and anything the Enemy really is or commands. The wickedness of other religions was the really live doctrine in the religion of each; slander was its gospel and denigration its litany.’

ebenezer on May 13, 2009 at 11:34 pm

The Pope would not enter Yad Vashem Museum because of a scurrilous exhibit attacking Pope Pius XII who saved more Jewish lives than any person or institution during WWII. As a Jew, I am sick of you continuing the same campaign against this Pope that was begun in the 40′s by the KGB and culminated in the play ‘The Deputy’ by a radical left playwright in Germany and was one of the most gratuitous smears ever.

poetcomic1 on May 14, 2009 at 12:36 am

I would entreaty God to bless you bothÖbut I see that He already has!
EbenezerÖmy Church includes JP and Benedict.
Papal vacancy theories are based on fabrications, misinterpretations, questionable individual visions, alleged prophecy, misreadings of actual prophecy, ignorance of history of the Mass (ie. communion in the hand is an age-old practice, the alleged perversion of the Mass etc.) and the history of the Catholic Church (regarding cremation, mixed marriage, permission at times for common worship, , uncritical acceptance of false assertions around changes in the papal coronation oath, salvation outside of the Church, etc. just for starters).
poetcomic1ÖDebbie fostering the former Communist campaign against the Pope! That puts her right up there with Captain Iran. Just different denials of historical fact. Thanks for your thoughts on this!
ìWhosoever saves a single life, saves an entire universe”
(Mishnah, Sanhedrin 4:5)
Although the Catholic Church was instrumental in saving thousandsÖthe Yad VaShem Museum and Debbie won’t recognize this. Sad. I think her father knew the truth.
I think Debbie wanted to see a wrestling match (“he sits quietly, politely”) between the Pope and the idiot Muslim, right then and there! Maybe SNL could still play it out for us, the way it could have been.
Like the Pope has to prove himself to anybody. The matter has already been addressed by the Church. The Pope speaks with full authority for God. All who remain anti-Semites are condemned to Hell. It’s that serious. The Pope is a pilgrim and a witness. The Church has spoken on the issueÖand now everyone IS accountable. That’s how it works. Most people will go to hell. Does Debbie think that shouting down the idiot Muslim will accomplish anything? Did she expect the idiot Muslim to be won over by the Pope’s personality alone? You need a miracle, here. This entire meeting then, should have been held at Lourdes!

The Canadien on May 15, 2009 at 2:14 pm

Canadian
Your cult head, Joseph Ratzinger is a practised liar. Liars do not speak for God. In the Gospel of John, he reveals that, “Lying is the language of Satan.” Ratzinger, being a practised liar, and lying being the language of Satan, one can only conclude that Joseph Ratzinger speaks for someone else.
Jeremiah reveals that, “There are those who say thus says the Lord, when the Lord did not speak it.” That goes for Joseph Ratzinger and apologists for him, and his cult-like you.
Over and out.

FulghumInk on May 19, 2009 at 9:03 am

Your such a lier, you read comments here that say the Pope is not Catholic (is he a jew?) and you don’t respond to them?!!! Your slience means that you must agree with that absurd statment, along with the other vile hate speech written (by you?) in this comments section, hate speech much worse then the phony “hate male” that you recieve. You are the true self-hating Jew since what you write about liberal Jews on this site is the most disgusting display of anti-semitism I have ever seen. David Duke could not write such vile hate as you write about liberal Jews on a daily basis. You must make Adolf proud. Speaking of your hero, you must have supported the final solution because you wanted Saint PUIS to piss your master off more so he could done his working quicker as in the Neterlands, when he ordered the Bishops to denounce your Fuehrer, 90% of Jews were killed. Yet you wanted him to Saint PUIS to Piss him off even more?!!! Then would have ment the end of European Jewry!!! You are truly Kapo, a self-hateing that wanted hitler to succeed. Pinches Lapide and even Einstein himself admited that the only reason any jews survived at all was beacuse of Saint Puis. Look up Cheif Rabbi Israel Zola of Rome you self-hating Jew. You are just as bad as the from cheif rabi of Israel, Meir Yisarel something, who banned Christmas in 1999 becasue he hates Christains and whould kill them if he had that chance.

selfhatingjew on June 11, 2009 at 12:46 am

Once again the anti-Catholics come out of the woodwork. I’m not referring to Debbies post, what’s true is true, no denying it.
But let’s play fair:
1: would the people posting here attacking the religion please state theirs so we can see if it can be held up to their flawless virgin white standards?
2: if we are to judge every religion and it’s people by their heirarchy than we can say that all Catholics love Hitler and the anti-Semites are right too: because a few jelaous pharisies condemned Christ, all the Jews are responsible for His crucifiction, which of course is total BS.
3: Instead of a few phrases to prove their talking points, all the experts should read the Bible inside out before posting their opinion.
4: what do you suppose He meant when He said “this is my body…my blood…etc. Do this in memory of me”?
5: when two people of different faiths marry one’s praying in the wrong temple, right? Of course the head of any faith bowing to a lesser god is totally wrong.
BTW, I agree with Deb’s post and don’t forget, he is a German after all, from way back.

theShadow on June 10, 2010 at 1:04 am

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