The emails you got had nothing to do with 'obeying a higher power', and I doubt very much that they were truly hate mail. We just simply disagree with you. My first problem with you appearance had more to do with CNN - there was simply no atheist representation. Not great journalism. I stumbled upon this website and decided FOR MYSELF to tell you how I feel and how disappointed I am in your viewpoint.

Your views on what America is all about are skewed. For instance, you said Freedom of Religion does not include freedom from religion. Thomas Jefferson would vehemently disagree: "[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities." - Thomas Jefferson.

You also said America is a Xian nation. No. America is not a Xian nation, but a nation full of Xians. America is supposed to be a land of tolerance and acceptance, concepts seemingly foreign to you. We do not selectively attack Xianity. What we stand against is the Xian right attempting to force Xianity (and their brand at that) on the rest of us, including you. We simply wish to be allocated the right to believe what we wish without interference from people pushing their own beliefs on us. We are simply pushing back. No one has ever removed prayer from schools. It was mandatory prayer that was removed. Any child has the right to pray, hold their beliefs, etc., and that INCLUDES children from atheist families. It is simply the Xian right which is perpetrating the discrimination of atheists and that is who we are pushing back against.

You also said one man that went "all the way to the Supreme Court for his child, the child doesn't know what's going on, to try to get 'under god' taken out of the Pledge of Allegience..." First, how is exposing a child to religion, before they have the capacity to intelligently form their own opinions better than teaching free thinking? Second, why do you think that an atheist would not be offended by pledging allegiance to something that they do not believe in? Quid pro quo. While there are people with different belief systems that are intolerant to other religions (Xians are no different in this regard), there is nothing wrong with standing up for ones beliefs when they are being institutionally and societally trampled.

The only voice of reason was that of Stephen Smith. Even though he and I will never agree on matters of religion, we can still respect each other's beliefs, and that's what this is all about.

Debbie, what happened was this story got picked up on Digg. Here's the Digg story: http://digg.com/politics/CNN_Anti_Atheist_Hit_Piece_write_them_to_protest_unanswered_hate_speech

The thing is, Digg's audience is largely:

In their 20's
Secular/Atheist
Liberal/Left leaning

And, as an Atheist, I'd say I have to agree, we're entitled, just as everyone else is, to make as much noise about what we believe in that we want. If you don't want to listen, don't, but telling us to shut up is wrong.

A simple search on Youtube for "Paula Zhan atheists" yielded this clip, Debbie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU
So apparently we cannot trust you to put even the slightest bit of work into verifying the most arbitrary facts.

I'm looking forward to Zhan's next panel discussion (composed entirely of white Christians and Muslims) that talks about how Jews and women need to shut up and stop imposing their values and beliefs on the rest of us.

A SIMPLE SEARCH OF MY NAME DOES NOT YIELD THE VIDEO. MY NAME IS NOT IN THE KEY WORDS, SO BASICALLY YOU ARE SAYING I CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO FIND A VIDEO OF ME THAT IS NOT UNDER MY NAME. THANKS FOR CONFIRMING THAT MANY ATHEISTS ARE ALSO IDIOTS, IN ADDITION TO BEING FUTURE MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. THE ONLY REASON THESE PEOPLE ARE E-MAILING IS BECAUSE A PROMINENT ATHEIST WEBSITE TOLD THEM TO. THE VIDEO WAS POSTED ON 2/4/07. THAT I'M JUST GETTING THE E-MAILS LAST NIGHT AND TODAY AFTER AN ATHEIST BLOG POSTED ABOUT IT, TELLS ME THE REAL STORY. ESPECIALLY SINCE EVERY SINGLE E-MAIL SAYS THE SAME THING. MONKEYS DOING WHAT THEY'RE TOLD AND PARROTS PARROTING WHAT THEY'RE ASKED TO REPEAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM SMART OR TRUTHFUL.
DEBBIE SCHLUSSEL

The USA was founded on Christian principles (argue with history if you want but that won't change facts), and it's population is 85% Christian. That is what you call a Christian nation. You can pretend it's not, and you can call it something else, but that does not change the fact that it is a Christian nation.

It's interesting to note that the athiests here are complaining that religion is being shoved down their throats, and at the same time telling us that if we don't want to listen to them we don't have to and that we shouldn't try to shut them up. Which is it? Are you allowed to talk about your religion (athiesm) because it's not Christianity, but we're not allowed to talk about ours? Typical of the left.

How ironic! Atheists claiming they only think for themselves following like sheep when someone tells them to bombard you.

You are right, Debbie. That atheist is an idiot. And, what a whiner.

Uh, Jeff, please point to me where anyone specifically asks to have Schlussel "bombarded". Not in the digg article or the comments does anyone mention that Debbie has a website, or it's URL, nor do they mention her email. If people are upset with her, they've taken the time to google her and find this information on their own.

You're a pot calling the kettle black, Debbie. You say "A SIMPLE SEARCH OF MY NAME DOES NOT YIELD THE VIDEO. MY NAME IS NOT IN THE KEY WORDS, SO BASICALLY YOU ARE SAYING I CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO FIND A VIDEO OF ME." Please stop shouting, by the way. Seems your monkeying around has found the all caps key. It's not that you cannot be trusted to find a video of yourself but that you can't be bothered to look very hard (and less than narcissistically) and then blame everyone else for your misgivings (of which there seem to be many). The video is all over the net. Plain and simple, even for you.

If my tone with you has seemed to change, it has. You are hateful, spiteful and a liar. How does being an atheist turn one into a Muslim? Besides, I have known people of Xian, Jewish and Muslim faiths and found them to be gracious people. What makes a person turn into the likes of you has nothing to do with religion. When I saw that video on YouTube I was genuinely angered, but after reading this vicious diatribe I was disgusted.

You are not the least bit interested in understanding anyone else that has a differing opinion and immediately label them. Ad hominem attacks like that are typical of those whose positions are untenable and indefensible.

By the way, OneLess, America would only be a Xian nation if it were institutionalized (ie, the word 'Christianity' were in the constitution). It is not. Typical of the right to be incomprehensible and thoughtless.

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams, Signer of The Constitution

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -Thomas Jefferson

"It is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what one does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime." -Thomas Paine, patriot: "Give me Liberty or Give me Death".

"The Christian God is a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust." Thomas Jefferson

"[T]he government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion[...]" - Thomas Jefferson

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England." - Ben Franklin

Of course you don't want to argue history or the facts; by their own words the fathers of our nation make lie to your claim that this is a Christian Nation.

This nation was founded on the timeless noble principles of Justice and Freedom, independent of this feeble passing fad of Christianity.

You tell us to shut up? I say clearly with all my heart: NO! This is my country, and I'm going to fight for it!

Randola,

I think the reason why Debbie uses all caps is to distinguish her words from that of the poster she's addressing.

Randola, it was me. Not OneLess. He's on your side.

First, she always responds to comments in capitals do make it easy to differentiate between her text and the commenter's text. It's only shouting when you're in an AOL chat room full of teenagers.

Second, I never said it was founded with the intent of being a Christian nation. I said it was founded on Christian principles, meaning the inspiration for creating this country was from a Christian perspective as opposed to any other religious perspective, atheism included. They didn't come here to get away from religion, they came here to get away from an oppressive church/government that wouldn't let them worship the way they felt they need to. The fact that it is 85% Christian makes it an overwhelmingly Christian nation. You're trying to ignore what it is and call it something different. You live in a Christian nation. You don't have to be a Christian, but whenever you see another person in this country, they most likely are a Christian. They celebrate Christmas. They even call it Christmas. (gasp) They might not go to church, they might not even think about God much, but you can be almost certain they are Christian. That is because they live in a Christian nation. Maybe you would be happier in Europe.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Ooops my bad, Stealthkix. Actually, the first amendment was in response (at least in part) to the mandatory attendance of weekly Anglican services in Britain. The American Revolution was about Freedom, not just Xian freedom. It cannot be conditional. I don't ignore that the demographics are such that the population of the US is overwhelmingly Xian, but does that mean that the majority is given carte blanche to ride roughshod over the rights of minorities? The Founding Fathers would be appalled as I am at Debbie's diatribe. Does the consitution mean nothing more than toilet paper to the right?

And as an atheist I celebrate Christmas, though not in the way Xians do. We have a tree and exchange presents (no carols - Christmas music drives me nuts (not a philosophical thing, just that they are so bad). I even call it Chrismas (Xmas is just typing shorthand for me).

My biggest problem is that Debbie is not the least bit interested in what anyone else has to say unless they agree with her. She and her ilk foment resentment and are part of the problem and not the solution. For every atheist-turned-Muslim I can find her 50 theist-turned-mass murderer without any problem. Atheism isn't about being immoral or amoral. Far from it. Anyone that thinks otherwise should read up on secular humanism. This is a common misconception. Go to any prison and try to find an atheist inmate. The percentage of atheist prisoners is much lower than atheists in the general population. If atheists are so immoral this would not be the case.

It's almost certain that you (and Debbie) know and respect people that are atheists. You just don't know that they are because they are not vocal. I wasn't until a while ago. It was the Kitzmiller trial that was the last straw for me.

By the way, to suggest to someone to move somewhere else because they might be , Stealthkix, is the most unAmerican thing I've ever heard someone say.

You make salient points, Randola, although your word choice is revealing and unappealing. When I think of a child being "exposed" to something, I think of lead paint or bitter cold or pornography. *Introducing* a child to religion is completely different.

I agree with Debbie, that those who purport to believe in no faith are liable to believe in a faith (Islam) that is completely hostile to Christianity (and to atheism!). They are even more likely to sympathize with Islam or, at minimum, grant it a validity to which it is in no way entitled.

Those who ignore that we are "a Christian nation" do so at our nation's, if not their own, peril. Christianity (Judeo-Christianity) is our unique inheritance, and is the source: of law, literature, psychology. Almost any field in the humanties taught at any secular university is indebted to the Holy Bible, and not the other way around. (Stealthkix already started this point.)

Despite a neutral, personal disbelief in God or non-observance of religion, many atheists abdicate their political will to those who actively oppose religion, i.e., *anti-theists*. (Like liberals who time and again are duped by Communists or Muslim radicals, atheists are, imho, duped by anti-theists.) Christopher Hitchens, for one, is honest enough to identify as an anti-theist.

Those of us who believe God has a place in the public sphere have let anti-theists set the tone and temper of this debate by hiding behind the label "atheist." Our bad. We need to do better.

***

"Xian" btw is a city in China:
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9806/25/clinton.china.01/

What's the Kitzmiller trial?

What in God's name possesses someone to use the meaningless term, "Xian"? Oh wait .. I answered my own question ...Of course, nothing in GOD's name would move someone to use that sort of vulgarity.

Oh well. Randola, for reasons having, I'm sure, to do with the terminally unique choice of the name Randola, obviously prefers other sorts of meaningless uniqueness' too .. amply evidenced in her soulless choice to embrace the dumb religion of atheism.

The use of the term Xian is simply a short form for Christianity, Daisytoo, not meaning any disrespect. It has a historical basis as well, it's etiology Greek. Use of the term God, god, or whatever is not offensive to me. You are entitled to your beliefs, as I am mine. Your insinuations demonstrate your low level of intelligence and morality and as such you are dismissed.

Atheism is not a religion. It's meaning is 'without belief'. Take it as you will.

And Jeremiah, our society owes a great deal to Greek and Roman influences, so what's your point?

By being unable to accept that you live in a Christian society, you seem unhappy with the way things are. To suggest that someone unhappy with the US move to where they might be happier is in no way unAmerican. I encourage barbara streisand to move to the UK like she has threatened to do for years whenever her party loses.

Debbie does tend to be aggresive with her opinions, but it's her blog and she's allowed to. She's over the top at times, but who isn't?

As far as the Christian majority "riding roughshod over the rights of minorities", what exactly are you talking about? Who's not allowing you to be an atheist? It's actually the other way around, and it's most apparent at Christmas time. It's become practically illegal to say the word "Christmas" in a public school, although there's no problem mentioning any other religion. You can't call the Christmas Break what it is, you have to call it "Winter Break" or whatever. Even though it's purpose is to not staff the school at a time when most students won't be there anyway because of Christmas. Not calling it what it is seems to be the atheist way.

I never thought there would be a situation where Steven A Smith would be voice of reason. I can't say anything that hasn't already been said multiple times so I will state simply that I feel sorry for you Debbie. I don't know how you deluded yourself to reach the conclusions you have, but you have none the less.

If you think Atheists would likely believe in a religion like Islam, you obviously do not understand what Atheism is. Atheists feel Islam is just as ridiculous Christianity and has the same amount of validity, which is none.

Truthfully there isn't really that much difference between Christianity and Islam once you get rid of the Sharia law that was institued outside of the Koran. In fact all religions have some form of the Ten Commandments.

So, in suggesting that Atheists are likely to believe in Islam you are proving your complete lack of Atheism. Atheists don't mark any real difference between any religion, they are all man-made concoctions with no proof.

Debbie, it's very foolish to think people write you before we are "told to" and parrot others "talking points". We are independently minded persons who think some of your comments and opinions are offensive and appalling according to our own barometers of what is socially just and fair. I don't know anything about you and I've never seen or heard you before that clip from CNN. But based on what I say, I think you are a very mixed up person. I hope you learn and grow in a compassionate person, because I know it must be painful to be where you are at right now.

I actually agree with you Stealthkix. The whole PC thing has gotten away from itself. You can't say anything controversial without fear of legal reprisal anymore. I have never had any problem with calling it Christmas.

You are right, it's her blog. However, that does not mean that other voices cannot be raised in protest, especially when I vehemently disagree. But I think over the top does not begin to describe this blurb. It's unsubstantiated garbage, just like what she said on CNN. By the way, the whole Xmas thing is not due solely to atheists. There are other religions that have felt offended. To ascribe this as a solely atheist push is incorrect and somewhat disingenuous. But you tell me how an atheist is to handle something like the Pledge when he/she has no belief in the existence of god? It's tortuous, like telling someone to go into a roundhouse and stand in a corner.

My apologies for my comment on the unAmerican thing, but this is my first exposure to Debbie and her 'views' have greatly upset me. I do not feel persecuted where I am, but I don't expect that to stay that way.

This post is literally the dumbest thing I have read on the internet. Do they have some sort of affirmative action thing going on at CNN for the mentally challenged or what?

It is sure good for a laugh though. I can't stop chuckling as I read this train wreck. Bravo!

Jesus, I just read that article above. You are one sick, uneducated lady. I guess that's because Christians are taught not to question things, so your brain turns to mush. Why you think atheists are so weak minded is beyond my comprehension. Learn about secular societies like Japan--the world's second biggest economy. It's orders of magnitude safer than America. It's technologically advanced. They have national health care. It's a truly spectacular soceity. American on the other hand, has more people in prison, more people on drugs, more people in therapy, more people in povery, more people without insurance, more people who simply kill each other than any other industralized nation on this blue planet. Compare those stats with secular nations like Japan, or Denmark, or Holland. You're just uneducated, bible belt white trash.

American is heading to be a Hispanic nation, so it will be your turn to SHUT UP soon. :)

This country was NOT founded in the Christian religion...it was formed out of Judeo-Christian VALUES. (Save the millions and billions of death quotes from better men than all of us for someone who buys the emotional arguments.)
Atheists shmatheists... Can an Atheist be conservative? How about a "Liberal"? I guess if we don't worship at the altar of the UN, believe in the dogma of "Global Warming", or the apostles of Rainforests aren't really jungles, or practice the creed of"Meat is Murder", then all those who choose...a novel thought eh...choose to believe in an intangible such as a divinity which dwarfs eternity are all "backwards", non-progressive et al etc.??
Freedom of Religion is guaranteed, not FreeDumb from it. Are American-Indians classified in the same class as a White Christian? How about a Black Jew? Why or why not?
Who said the following, "Can't we all get along?" "...nothing to fear but fear itself."? Values...values...values...
Your pain is weakness leaving your body.

SickBoy, I have no idea what that rant meant.

The Greeks and Romans were enormously religious peoples. Hesiod and Homer came before Plato and Aristotle. Oedipus's faulty free will was redeemed by his piety. Shall I go on?

My points:

* Any society that diminishes religion's importance diminishes itself to the point of moral castration. (Robert Bork is somehwat more polite, terming America's situaiton in Slouching Towards Gomorrah as one of "dwindling moral capital.")

* [So-called] atheist Marxism's attempt to eradicate religion from the public sphere reproduces it in force. This is true in theory (the Catechism) as well as in practice (USSR).

***
As for wabi's point about industrial Japan being so great: its population is in decline, it is a diminishing nation. Man does not live by Sony Walkman alone:
http://jeremayakovka.typepad.com/jeremayakovka/2007/01/turning_japanes.html

As for Chubby's point about atheists steering clear of Islam: of course an intelligent atheist will balk at Islam *as a matter of personal creed*, but that same intelligence should also find common cause with devout non-Muslims -- all of whom are in Islam's convert-subtmit-or-die crosshairs. Only a fool would believe that atheism alone will prevail over the Islamist threat.

>As for wabi's point about industrial Japan being so great: its population is in decline,

Is that bad news? Italy's population is also in decline. I think it's great news. We have enough people on this planet. Japan can import labor from countries like Brazil killing two birds with one stone: giving jobs to labors from less wealthy countries, and colleting taxes from them to pay for Japan's social security.

The earth can't afford to have global population grow unchecked. There's nothing to say that a fast growing population is a health nation. In fact all evidence points to the opposite conclusion. Wealth countries with educated women have a lower birth rate than very poor countries with uneducated women.

If everyone living today had the same standard of living as Americans enjoy, we'd need 6 more earth's worth of resources to support them.

Recommended reading for analysis on global population trends: "The Future of Life" by Edward O. Wilson

I think the more likely cuplrit for your sudden "fame" is a posting on Deadspin.com.

http://deadspin.com/sports/espn/stephen-a-smith-voice-of-reason-in-a-world-of-insanity-234596.php

>think the more likely cuplrit for your sudden "fame" is a posting on Deadspin.com.

it's also on onegoodmove, there is where I found it.

wabi, you're an idiot and an enemy of the West.

Shrinking populations in industrialized, traditionally Christian nations has nothing to do with halting global population growth, but everything to do with guaranteeing that free civliization as we know it will be wiped off the face of the earth by the next century.

Shrinking populations justify calls for more immigration, chiefly from groups that are strongly anti-assimilationist (Muslims, Mexicans).

If you really believed in retarding population growth, you'd target, for starters, a) Muslim nations abroad and b) immigrant populations here -- IN ITALY, for example -- that breed in order to take over the society. (Anyone interested in the subject can read about this in Oriana Fallaci's The Force of Reason.)

Come on everybody! We all know that this country worships the one thing only - the almighty dollar.

Ms. Schlussel--
The only kind of 'Jew' who could say the bigoted idiocy you thought was so insightful on "Paula Zhan Now" (and what you have displayed in this post) is one that either has no knowledge or appreciation of her peoples heritage.
Perhaps you were more interested in planning your bat mitzvah than actually learning about Judaism. To remedy this fact, I encourage you to speak with your rabbi, maybe ask him to discuss 'empathy' with you. Until then, dont shame us all by prefacing your hateful views with "Im Jewish..."

Dear Debbie,
I am an atheist, (a quiet one), and a great
supporter of yours. I do not feel threatened in the
least by Christians or Jews. I do however, feel
threatened and fearful of Islamic Fundamentalists
and supposedly moderate Muslims, (are there any?) ,
around the world and in the U.S.. I believe they
wish to destroy my way of life.
Please keep up the great work!
Brian

i'm with you brain,beleive(or dont)whatever you want,leave me alone and i will do the same,but islam wont leave us alone,so if we want to keep our country then we have to do away with islam,just like we did with nazi's.japans religion used to be they were gunna rule the world too,and we had to beat the hell out of them to stop them.

Wow, I didn't think it could get worse... but obviously, I was wrong!

I think Debbie just likes to pick a fight, obviously while her head is shoved up her own ass, so it's easier to see her opponent that way. It's her blog, she's allowed to... and she allows comments, so lucky us who respond!

Debbie: I too saw you on CNN last night, on the web; yes, the clips from cnn did make youtube (doesn't everything? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU but others have linked that for you )

Second, atheists aren't e-mailing you en-mass on the calling of a "higher power," they're e-mailing you cuz they're a group of pissed off people. I'm surprised you aren't used to that by now. Nobody told us to e-mail you/post here, the original blog actually said to bombard CNN, but many of us thought to give you a piece of our minds too since we're concerned that our voice wasn't heard over your own loud clucking. But, obviously, you aren't interested in anyone's idea who contradicts your own. Seriously, I think you should be checked for NPD (http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-pe07.html).

And how in the world do you associate Atheism with Islam? Based on one instance you can site of an atheist turned Muslim? Lots of people in this world change religion or turn to a belief that there is no god. You've obviously got a bias against Islam by your implication that Muslim is equivalent to extremist. I won't account that bias to your being a Jew because, well, I know a few Muslims and Jews who get along with each other just fine. You just think that way because you're a narrow-minded bitch, and you seem to be proud of it.

You put all the people you hate in this world (Atheists, Jews, Europeans) in the same basket, as if they're all in it together against you and the rest of America. News flash: atheists aren't anti-american, and they're definitely not pro-islam. There are plenty of good hearted, humanitarian atheists in this world (look up secular humanism, it's actually a very good thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism). Atheists are often just average Americans who believe there is no god. Deal with it without putting them down as a group. (Good thing we don't judge all Jews based on what we know about you.)

Randola, well said. (And all caps is universally perceived as shouting online, and there are many different ways for the author of a page to distinguish their own words (color, italic, font) aside from all caps.) And wabisabi, good point bringing up Japan as an atheist nation. (Explaining who Jesus was and the resurrection to Japanese kids... they get the point; Jesus was a zombie)

I don't ignore that the country is majority christian, but it's also on average $10k in credit card debt, majority white, and heck, even majority female by a small percentage. Does this mean we need to cater to the needs of only the majority?

Even if the country is majority christian, there's this thing that's supposed to be separation of church and state. "In god we trust" and "one nation under god" didn't appear until the U.S. was fighting those "godless commies." It was all about politics; not about god.

Your claims that atheists are becoiming Muslims in record numbers have no basis in reality at all. There are no statistics out there that show that atheists are converting to Islam at a rate higher than theists (of any religion). You are talking completely and utterly out of your ass.

Its interesting though to witness your disdain for Islam. I am an "atheist" and I share this disdain. The Muslim God is an illogical tyrant and the Muslim holy book, the Koran, is full of hate, contradictions and absurdities. I share your sentiments about Islam. There is good reason to disdain Islam. What you feel to realize, however, is that the same thing can be said about both Christianity and Judaism. Both of those religions also contain much hate (the Bible verses Christians love to ignore or lamely explain away) and the deity of Judaism and Christianity is an absolute tyrant who is set to torture all those who do not buy is illogical book for all eternit. Its there in the Bible.

The differance is that Christianity and the "Christian world" has been whitewashed with good doses of reason and reationality. We had an enlightenment, we have seperation of church and state, we have many things that encourage Christians to ignore their Bible. At one time Christianity was almost just like Islam is today. It was completely a terroristic religion. Women were burned as witches, men and women where tortured and killed as heritics and nations were conqered and "Christianized" by the sword.

Christianity had roughly a 700 year head start on Islam. Subtract 700 years from today and that is right around the time of the Inquisitions and Crusades.

Educate yourself you fool.

I would question your reference to "hate" mail, because most of the anger expressed above seems to be yours in a veiled attempt at using sarcasm and accusations that assume things about atheism you know nothing about. And your attempts at relating atheism to too extreme samples of less than stellar human beings lacks credibility, and the same examples of Christians can be made. Sadly you lack the intelligence to gain knowledge about atheism, and because of this you assume superiority with your god and religion. I would never assume something about you on the generalization of your Christianity, however you have generalized about Atheists. Yet I smile, because your lack of intelligence is transparent in your comments above, and even many in your community will probably be embarrassed by your ignorant and superior attitude. This by the way is not hate mail, quite the opposite, because I believe in addressing your lack of knowledge and your silliness. I am sorry for you. Read and learn, have a will of your own, and good luck with your bigoted attitude. I hope you find some inner peace.

How could I not be pissed-off after having to endure that hate-fest of Karen Hunter and Debbie Schlussel repeatedly demanding that atheists need to 'shut up!'. And now I come here and find that the mindless pejoritives and seemingly endless ad hominem atttacks from this women continue.

--------------------------------------------------
As for the facts of history:
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"... the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"

-Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, written during the administration of George Washington, signed by President John Adams, and ratified unanimously by the United States Senate.

Does it get any clearer than that? *unanimous*
--------------------------------------------------
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Secularists (which include Jews, Christians, and Muslims as well as atheists) struggle to preserve the constitutionally protected rights of *all* Americans to freely express their beliefs through whatever rituals they choose without government interference supporting or hindering any one practice over another.

Your choice to participate (or not participate) in rituals related to your own belief-system are your own business. If your children want to pray in school or practice any other ritual there, they are free to do so, but it is a wholly different matter to have a teacher officially instructing a child in a particular kind of ritual and/or faith-based belief system and/or political party message. I sincerely hope that you can see the difference.

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I would no more want a teacher telling your child that Jesus is not Christ, than I want a teacher telling my child that he is.
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--

Debbie,
In your essay, you say "If you don't believe in anything, you'll fall for virtually nothing." Which tells me you're something of an idiot. What you meant to say is "If you believe in nothing, you'll fall for anything." Take a second to reread what you actually wrote. You're saying that people who "don't believe in anything," i.e. atheists, are going to "fall for virtually nothing," meaning atheists are likely to be convinced by very little or "virtually nothing." This actually makes a lot of sense because atheists frequently come to their conclusions about the absurdity of belief in a supernatural being through the questioning of organized religion. That ability to ask questions, and demand reason and logic behind the answers, is the very thing that keeps atheists from falling for any stupid thing that they're told. By the way, do you own a sense of irony? That a Jewish woman would agree that a minority group ought to "shut up" about their rights as citizens under the Constitution is disgusting and ridiculous. You have no sense of history (American or Jewish) and, as such, you are doomed to stupidity until you educate yourself.

Most of these posts are dripping with hate. All of them seem to be thinly veiled efforts to display how superior the intellect of the writer is.
I especially like it when they accuse others of knowing nothing about atheism. Please forward the rule book!
Most of you really are ripe for the picking by an Islamic Fundamentalist recruiter. Soft minded pseudo-rebels from suburbia.
Brain (atheist)

I am quite interested in seeing these "statistics" stating that atheists are converting to Islam in record numbers. As a researcher focused on the psychological study of religion , I can refute this claim, as I do remain current on relevant literature. I have yet to see a study of this kind published anywhere, and given the scope of a project such as this, I sincerely doubt that any "data" supporting this claim comes from a reputable, confirmable, and empirical source.

Just to clarify, atheism is not a doctrine... it is not an agenda. It is simply the non-belief in god and (typically)other supernatural phenomena. The statement that this country was founded based upon "Christian principles" needs to do some reading in the areas of philosophy and morality. It is just as simple and accurate to say that our nation was founded on Confucian values, or Jewish values, because all of these value systems have common features. Our founding fathers were largely a secular group, as is evidenced in their writing and in their urgent desire for the separation of church and state.

This myopic, revisionist history that Schlussel presents is a sad excuse for journalism. Also, please note that while 85% of the country may state they are Christian (I am unaware of the most recent statistics, however I suspect that is an extremely high estimate), the number of individuals who actually practice their religion and truly believe it's doctrine is much smaller, around 44%.

Debbie, I emailed you yesterday after seeing your disgraceful performance on Youtube. You sound a bit paranoid, but as a Jew and an Atheist you showed you are completely clueless and a Dhimmi for Jesus.
I got your email from your contact info at the top of the page. Nobody made me do it. I did it because you need to be told. I even wrote a blog post and pretty much dedicated it to you.
http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.com/

WELL DEBBIE…you certainly attracted the “tumbleweed” with this post!

ATHEISTS…just look at these FLAT-SOULS quoting Thomas Jefferson. As a Canadien, I don’t really know much about him…but wasn’t he some debauched ex-President?

Disregarding Thomas’s obvious insignificance…I mean what does he have to say that compares with the magnitude or eloquence of anything Jesus, the Christ, said.

Man…I look at atheists and I am just laughing.

Long before YOU atheists rejected us…we rejected you!

MAKE NO MISTAKE atheists…Catholics and other Christians, and Jews for that matter, want nothing to do with your aimless, wandering and worthless lives ~

And don’t criticize us…because from the beginning, you have failed to understand us, or our motivations–

I'm gonna call them "xtheists" for now on. Heh heh, two can play that game!

From iQGuy:

--------------------------------------------------
As for the facts of history:
--------------------------------------------------
"... the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"

-Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, written during the administration of George Washington, signed by President John Adams, and ratified unanimously by the United States Senate.

Does it get any clearer than that? *unanimous*

**********************************************

You guys are such out and out liars. You twist words and leave out a huge deal of quotes that support the religious views of the founding fathers.

First of all, the Treaty of Tripoli said "the government" was not founded on the Christian religion. They did NOT state this wasn't a country founded on Christian principles.

---------------------------------------------
You want to quote John Adams? How about:

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature."

John Adams, Works, Vol. X, pp. 45-46, to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813.

--------------------------------------------

Notice, unlike you xtheists, aka liars and phonies, *I* provided the reference.

I am not going to get in a war of quotes as I know you guys are totally insane and it would never stop, and I never want to force my Christianity on anyone. But, you xtheists at least should attempt to be honest about your religion.

Rock on, Debbie. Every single thing you said about these people is true and they have proven it with this silly attempt to hassle you for your views. These xtheists proclaim they are so "free" and "open minded"...HA! They are the biggest sheep who will fall for anything.

Hey Canadien, I'm Canadian too. Jews rejected Jesus, how do you feel about that. In fact Jesus never existed and you are living a lie.

You can laugh all you want. But I don't go around denying reality.

There is absolutely no proof God exists or has ever existed. None.

40 historians were alive when Jesus supposedly lived and not one world was mentioned about him from 0-40 AD. Not one.

Paul made the whole thing up, and you are living a big fat lie. You reject reality, you might as well reject me too:)

And now CNN has invited Richard Dawkins to appear Thursday, February 8 at 8 p.m. Do yourself a favor Ms. Schlussel and watch and learn. If you can open your mind a moment you may learn something.

BTW, one more word from me on the Treaty of Tripoli. Anyone interested in it and it's ramifications, just do a Google on it and MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND!

I'm not going to attempt to lie like the xtheists, read for yourself and you will see it's not a cut and dried issue like the lying "iQGuy" and the other xtheists are trying to say.

Then, judge who is trying to force their views on you.

To the Canadien,

I agree with most of what you say, except for your comment that Thomas Jefferson was "insignificant".

Are you kidding?

The Declaration of Independence is hardly insignificant.

"There is absolutely no proof God exists or has ever existed. None."

Conversely, there is absolutely no proof that God does NOT exist. Hence, this is a matter of belief.

Of course one can ask questions.

"Though there is as yet no accepted theory for that minuscule split second before quarks and electrons came into existence, there are constraints on how the universe must have started. To produce a universe resembling one in which we can live, the Big Bang had to be finely tuned. How finely? Theories vary. According to one, if the initial conditions of the universe were chosen randomly, there would only be one chance in 10^120 (that's one with 120 zeros after it) that the universe would be livable. Cosmologist Roger Penrose has it vastly more unlikely: The exponent he suggests is 10^123. By any such estimate, the chance that a livable universe like ours would be created is far less than the chance of randomly picking a particular single atom out of all the atoms in the universe-Can you accept odds like that as a coincidence? It would seem more likely that something in yet-unknown physics determines that the universe had to start in the way it did. Such new physics would likely include a quantum theory of gravity. It may well be the long-sought "theory of everything" - the ToE - uniting Nature's four fundamental forces into a single theory. All physical phenomena (all phenomena?) should then be explainable in principle."

"With another perspective on whether a ToE would explain all we see. Stephen Hawking poses a relevant question:

'Even if there is only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? The usual approach of science of constructing a mathematical model cannot answer the questions of why there should be a universe for the model to describe. Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing?'"

From Quantum Enigma by Bruce Rosenblum and Fred Kuttner

The Canadien asked, re: Thomas Jefferson, ".....what does he have to say that compares with the magnitude or eloquence of anything Jesus, the Christ, said."

How about this?

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

The Declaration of Independence

"According to one, if the initial conditions of the universe were chosen randomly, there would only be one chance in 10^120 (that's one with 120 zeros after it) that the universe would be livable. Cosmologist Roger Penrose has it vastly more unlikely: The exponent he suggests is 10^123."

This sounds like an incorrect use of probability. What is the probability of rolling 3 dice and getting 1's on all of them? Well, it depends. Before you can answer this question, you have to know some information. How many sides do each die have? Maybe they're the normal 6-sided dice, or they could be 20-sided dice, or maybe it's a 4-sided dice, a 10-sided dice, and a 100-sided dice. Are they fair dice? Perhaps one of the dice has only 1's, or maybe one of them is weighted. And are they independent events? Maybe one of dice rolls depends on the other ones. For instance, perhaps the types of the second and third dice will be chosen based on the number that came up on the first die. As you can see, before you can answer this probability question, you need to have a lot more information about the sample space and the possible outcomes.

So, what's the probability that the universe is the way it is? Well, what other possibilities are there? How likely are they? Do those universal constants depend on each other? How many different combinations of universal constants would give rise to some form of life? Do we even know the answer to these questions? Unless we do, any probability calculation here is absolutely meaningless. It's like calculating the probability of getting a full house without knowing the size or type of the deck you're playing with and how many cards you get dealt.

As for why it exists, does it need a reason? It's probably difficult for human minds to accept that some things happen without a reason** (here I mean reason as in "purpose", not reason as in "physics say when this happens then that occurs"). In any case, I just shuffled a standard deck of poker cards without the jokers. I won't give you the full sequence here, but it starts with 4D 7H 2H 2C 9H 5C and ends with 2D JC 5C 8H 6H. The odds of getting a 52-card poker deck in exactly this sequence is 1/(52!), or about 1.24x10^-68. Incredibly unlikely, right? Can you explain the reason why it came up in this order, and not any other?

** This is probably because of pattern formation. If you see a tiger pattern in the bushes when there's not really a tiger there, you get scared and run away. If you don't see a tiger pattern in the bushes when there really is a tiger there, you get eaten. In the first case, you spend some energy running. In the second case, you get eaten and don't pass on your genes. Thus, the mind is perhaps too good at forming patterns. For an example of this, see this optical illusion: http://www.coolopticalillusions.com/invisible_triangle.htm .

Hello Debbie,
I regret that you receive hate mail, but you no doubt intelligent enough to know that hate mail comes from people of lesser intelligence and does represent any group of people as a whole. I regret to see your views are so very intolerant and against all that represents the freedoms of people in this country. This is by no means a nation dedicated to any particular religion as you believe. In fact, the belief of nations being Christian or Muslim is quite counter-productive in the sense of peace being attained in this world. You think it is good that atheist and others opposed to your views are small in number and "weak", but history only shows that your brand of discrimination, bigotry, and intolerance only strengthens the groups of people who it is directed against. You probably don't realize it, but your behavior parallels more the behaviors of pagans toward Christians in the late Roman Empire. I firmly believe that the good people of the world will overcome people who share your shameful brand of bigotry and intolerance.

BACON EATING ATHEIST JEW:

YOU are really FAT, and BALD, and UGLY!

I saw your ridiculous video snorting pepper. What a fool you are. You are just gross. Been eating too much bacon I see.

Ok, loser you prove nothing in that video except that you are disgusting.

Shucks, no edit function! Anyway, I wanted to comment on this as well:

"Conversely, there is absolutely no proof that God does NOT exist. Hence, this is a matter of belief."

I'd also like to say that there's absolutely no proof that Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and the Invisible Pink Unicorn don't exist. Just because there's no proof that something doesn't exist doesn't mean it's OK to believe it. Indeed, it's almost impossible to attain this proof. Does that mean we should believe in little green men on Mars?

If you're up for some "light" reading on belief, I'd recommend this website: http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm . This website contains the text of two very famous articles and one not-so-famous article. The first is "The Ethics of Belief" by William K. Clifford, who criticizes belief without sufficient evidence. The second is the famous "The Will to Believe" by William James, a defense of belief. The third is a critique of The Will to Believe by A. J. Burger. While it's a bit blunter than I would have liked, I think it is a fairly comprehensive rebuttal to "The Will to Believe" and is worth a read.

Zelc,

"I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice."

Albert Einstein

Willpower:

If Albert Einstein said that, so what? He's a human being (albeit a very intelligent one), and he can be wrong (especially since his specialty is physics, not philosophy of religion). Newton believed in alchemy, and we certainly think he's wrong in that. Einstein was incredibly smart, but he wasn't some prophet or visionary who could not possibly be wrong.

Besides, I think it's been shown that Einstein wasn't religious in this way. According to the Wikipedia article (yea yea, I know, Wikipedia can't be trusted, but this article actually cites some reputable sources and quotes for that), Einstein never believed in a personal God, but used "God" to mean the natural laws.

It's also interesting to note Einstein was wrong. This famous line was made in response to quantum mechanics, which now is widely accepted due to its amazing accuracy at describing and predicting observations.

***IS AMERICA A CHRISTIAN NATION?***

The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion. - John Adams, 11th article of the Treaty of Tripoli

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”
-Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
--Abraham Lincoln

“Of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men”
-Voltaire

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
[James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785.]

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies."
--Thomas Jefferson

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
--George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!'"--John Adams

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.”
-James Madison

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
[Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813.]

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
--James Madison

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."
--James Madison

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
--John Adams

"That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words."
--Ethan Allen

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."--Thomas Paine
(The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY))

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."--James Madison
(The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.)

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion... has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."--Benjamin Franklin
(Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.)

"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."--Thomas Jefferson
(Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.)

"[...] denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."--Ethan Allen
(Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.))

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
--James Madison

"No man on Earth has less taste or talent for criticism than myself, and the least and last of all should I undertake to criticize works on the Apocalypse (Revelations). It was between fifty and sixty years since I read it and then I considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy, nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams."
--Thomas Jefferson

"The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."--Thomas Jefferson

***WAS EINSTEIN RELIGIOUS?***

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
-- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930

It was the experience of mystery -- even if mixed with fear -- that engendered religion.
-- Albert Einstein (attributed: source unknown)

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
-- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

One strength of the Communist system ... is that it has some of the characteristics of a religion and inspires the emotions of a religion.
-- Albert Einstein, Out Of My Later Years (1950), quoted from Laird Wilcox, ed., "The Degeneration of Belief"

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
-- Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955, quoted from James A Haught, "Breaking the Last Taboo" (1996)

Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being.
-- Albert Einstein, 1936, responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray. Source: Albert Einstein: The Human Side, Edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann

I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God.
-- Albert Einstein, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.
-- Albert Einstein, The World as I See It

I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any attempt to organize peace on this planet.
-- Albert Einstein, letter, 1954

The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with the natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress....If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life.
-- Albert Einstein, Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning. The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism....If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge. Immortality? There are two kinds. The first lives in the imagination of the people, and is thus an illusion. There is a relative immortality which may conserve the memory of an individual for some generations. But there is only one true immortality, on a cosmic scale, and that is the immortality of the cosmos itself. There is no other.
-- Albert Einstein, quoted in Madalyn Murray O'Hair, All the Questions You Ever Wanted to Ask American Atheists (1982) vol. ii., p. 29

I would like to comment on your assertion that Atheist are all going to become Muslim Extremeists because two Atheist's followed that path.

It disturbs me that you are grouping millions upon millions of people together and are making assumptions about them based on the actions of 2 people.

If I were to do this for people of the Christian faith, I could very easily assume that all Christians are Kool-Aid drinking gay bashers that protest military funerals (and in case you are unaware of the references, I am basing my judgment by the actions of Jim Jones and Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church).

Now obviously that is not true. How do I know that? Because I am a rational person. I would like to think that most people are like me and realize that there are extremes in every faith, every race, and every walk of life. Unfortunatly, you do not seem to be one of those people.

"The most beautiful and most profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms�this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness."

"My religion," he says, "consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."

Dr. Albert Einstein

Yes, all humans can be wrong, even atheists. Only God is infallible.

SO, is Schrodinger's cat alive, dead or both?

Hey Goon,

Why do you need so many back up quotes? These must be kept handy for whenever you are challenged, right?

Why the desperate need to prove there is no God?
OMG, I typed GOD....is that allowed?

"Why do you need so many back up quotes? These must be kept handy for whenever you are challenged, right?"

Nice try. Stop trying to dodge the facts.

CarpeDiem: I guess I ought to elaborate. You didn't actually offer any counterargument. In fact you ignored the huge pile of evidence I presented that America was not founded by Christians or on Christian ideals, and that Einstein was in fact nonreligious.

All you did was insult me like an upset child because you couldn't argue with the quotes.

America was founded on secular enlightenment principles by the founding fathers, who were (for the record) deistic/agnostic freemasons. It is not a Christian nation and never was; the references to the Christian god found on our money and in our pledge were put there during the cold war in an evangelical attempt to redefine America as inherently Christian in order to differentiate us from the "godless commies".

America is not a Christian nation, but it is also not an atheist nation. It's for all men and women of all colors and faiths. We're not stealing the nation from the Christians, because it was never theirs: We're simply intent on putting an end to the preferential treatment that Christians enjoy due to relatively recent evangelical corruption of the goverment.

This was intended to be a country for everyone, and we intend to see to it that America returns to that ideal.

Foolproof test of whether someone's an atheist or an anti-theist: When they mouth off all angered for any reason, pause for a moment, look 'em gently in the eye (maybe put your hand on their arm), and ask:

"Have you let the love of Jesus Christ into your heart today....?"

An atheist will shrug it off as a light-hearted joke ("Ha-ha, very funny" etc.).

An anti-theist will get even angrier at you. One guy I know blows up every time. Never fails.

Foolproof test of whether someone's a theist or an anti-atheist: When they mouth off all angered for any reason, pause for a moment, look 'em gently in the eye (maybe put your hand on their arm), and ask:

"Did you know that God is just an made-up being that doesn't exist?"

A theist will shrug it off as a light-hearted joke ("Ha-ha, very funny" etc.).

An anti-atheist will get even angrier at you. There seem to be lots of those in this thread...

Debbie, you are a bigot. End of story.

While you may like to think that a person is evil, just because of a lack of relegious beleif, that is what most people call ignorance, for one an Athiest (like myself) would not become a terrorist because of a conversion to muslim mainly because it is the lack of relegious beleif that made them athiest in the first place (some one without relegious beleifs isnt going to kill someone for extreme relegious beleifs), that or that most of us use a little thing called LOGIC and decided that blind faith in a book written 2000 years ago by people who thought the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe is most likely MADE UP to explain what they dont understand (just like the greek and roman gods, HINT HINT). If you think about it a strong christian person is more likely to kill someone over their beleifs than someone who has none (remeber the crusades anyone). So next time you want to point fingers at some one, try not to slander people(its illegal). And please attempt to use a little common sence, and if its not to much to ask know what your talking about first

you are an ignorant cunt. cunt cunt cunt. ban me if you want you cunt faced shit eating shmegma. GO BUTT_FUCK YOUR FACE!!!!!!

ROTFLMAO. I just can't get my head around atheist hate mail.

What are they going to do - damn you? No belief in God, no damnation...

Tell you to go to hell? No heaven, no hell...

And you have to wonder, atheists don't believe in God so why would they care what Debbie, a mere mortal, says? Are we sure this isn't a Geico commercial?

Amazing. Sad commentary on the lack of reason present in the public discourse. How on earth you can argue that a great preponderance of athiests end up as religeous fundimentalists (based on two cases? are you serious?) is beyond me. I was raised in a fundimentalist household and ended up agnostic. Does that mean that all Christians will become agnostics? I think not. I realize your and your ilk's brand of yellow journalism might enable you to rake in the dough, but ultimately you do yourself and your country a great disservice.

GOON,

I'm not upset, I'm laughing my ass off at you atheists!

lol y's everyone so bent out of shape? hows about, we all decide that we have more interesting things to talk about. Anyone getting this upset over cable news is missing the point. Everybody breathe, no ones trying to make anyone do anything. Just relax

God, I love the hypocracy of the Fundies. They go to church every Sunday and prattle about loving their neighbor, but the moment they get out in the real world and run into someone who doesn't think exactly like they do, they go apeshit.
Just look at some of the lovely examples of Christian "compassion" popping up in this thread:

"That atheist is an idiot."

"amply evidenced in her soulless choice to embrace the dumb religion of atheism."

"wabi, you're an idiot and an enemy of the West."

"Man…I look at atheists and I am just laughing.
Long before YOU atheists rejected us…we rejected you!
MAKE NO MISTAKE atheists…Catholics and other Christians, and Jews for that matter, want nothing to do with your aimless, wandering and worthless lives"

"BACON EATING ATHEIST JEW:
YOU are really FAT, and BALD, and UGLY!
I saw your ridiculous video snorting pepper. What a fool you are. You are just gross. Been eating too much bacon I see.
Ok, loser you prove nothing in that video except that you are disgusting."

I guess all that "golden rule" stuff is passe now that Jackboot Christianity is on the march...

The fact that I'm Jewish just makes me hate you that much more. I hope people don't get the impression that all Jewish people are fanatic morons like this bitch.

Just so you know, I'm also Atheist. And I'm sure you won't be able to understand that -- "OMG HOW CAN HE BE BOTH JEWISH AND ATHEIST?!" -- but there is an entire world of intelligence out there ready for your bastardization. Maybe soak some in while your at it?

I emailed CNN yesterday because I saw the video WHICH WAS POSTED ON THE NET, and I was fucking pissed at what I saw. I didn't email you, I emailed CNN. And I wasn't told by anybody to email, I did so because I am an individualist and I am an American who believes in the CONSTITUTION.

I have the utmost doubts that you actually understand our Constitution or our Bill of Rights, or what our founding father envisioned for this great country, so I'll spare you the lecture that will just go over your useless head.

Instead I'll just say that I hope you realize ignorance is the #1 threat to America, and you are only contributing to it. I hope you realize this before it's too late.

I think most of your points have been very well refuted already, but I also take offense to your statement that atheists "don't believe in anything." Obviously if you had bothered to consult a dictionary, you'd see that atheists simply have a little problem with the idea of an invisible man in the sky. We do believe in some things--Some of us believe it's unfortunate the web gives every uninformed loudmouth a platform. People say there's no such thing as bad publicity, but I think in your case, your ignorance on the subject comes through quite clearly.

Well I suspect as your in showbiz you love all this noise-heck i cant imagine any other reason that i would end up reading your blog. Its OK - i dont blame you for your comments - it is obvious that this is what it takes to be on top - to be heard as a women in 'news' and I am cool with that. Heck Stern says all sorts of stuff that I am certain he cracks up about later knowing that the masses are churning it into butter. You are very well educated and I imagine laughing to the bank. All of this chatter above- all of the anger in all of the different directions = money! You are an American and our religion is capitalism and you are doing well :) Me...I have traveled to 38 different countries in my life and met so many good and some bad people. I have been stabbed by a group of Muslims in a Bangkok (long story) but they were mad bout the first war in Iraq and took it out on me ;) I have made Muslim friends in Egypt less then 2 months ago and of course have many many Christian friends as well as about any/every other believer you might run into. One thing is certain for me - people everywhere all love their children and most people really just want food, water, health and a little luck in life-and perhaps cable tv...
Keep up the good work - your Brand and marketing machine is churning this into gold and a book will easily follow. The extreme born agains, the angry atheists and the Islamic fundamentalist all share one thing- they are all sure that they are right-well they cant all be right...now how does
a white upper middle class guy get a few million angry people to hit his web site....I can only dream :)

@CarpeDiem:
"Why the desperate need to prove there is no God?"

Because, as I see it, belief in God often causes people to do crazy things which can be from annoying to dangerous.

"OMG, I typed GOD....is that allowed?"

WHERE are some theists getting the idea that atheists want to make it illegal to be religious, or even say "God"? Where? THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE AGAINST. No one should be forced to believe or not believe ANYTHING, or say or not say anything. That is why we get upset and send "hatemail" when people talk like it's ok to silence minorities (or anyone). We're not saying it should be illegal to say what you're saying, we're just saying we think you are very, disturbingly, wrong.

But as always I'll defend your right to say it, regardless.

Debbie,
I would like to respond to some of the comments you have made on tv, whenever it was aired. I do not believe in the need for obscenities nor threats. I believe that everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe in. This goes for Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and many other religions that I don't have room to mention. I am not against prayer in school for any religion. I just am against an adult leading any kind of prayer in school. To me, an adult leading prayer is telling all students that this is what you should believe. Every child should be able to make up their own mind on religion and not have to give in to peer pressure from a teacher or adult about what the "American Religion" is today.

I also would like to comment on you saying that "America is a Christian Nation." Since the day whites first began to colonize the "new world," there has been a melting pot in this nation. It was mostly British to begin with, but then many other European nation immigrants came to America. We also had African-American slaves in past times. We are very much still a melting pot nation today. If we are telling all these people it's ok to live here, why do we want to force them to believe in a Christian god? Is Buddha not a good enough god? What about Jesus? What about Mohammed? I think it is unfair to label the American nation as a Christian nation even though it is the majority in this day. We are potentially leaving out many influential citizens of this great country.

I would also have to disagree with atheists being grouped with Muslim Fundamentalists. I believe it's important to remember that it is the Muslim Fundamentalists that do not like America. Many Muslims love our nation and have nothing against it. Just because we(atheists) don't believe in any higher power doesn't mean that we don't have any morals. I would never harm anyone. I can't hit an animal let alone a human being. I just want peace, but to have that we all must learn to except each other's beliefs.

Finally atheism is not a religion. It is a lack of any higher power at all. We look at the science behind evolution and other science facts and find it very hard to disprove them.

I do hope you take the time to read this so that you understand that not every atheist is an angry hypocrite.
Lisamarvy

A popular atheist-leaning philosophical discussion board (includes discussions on religion): http://iidb.org

(I'm am a non-theist - I don't believe in a god)

(Can I also apologize for all the "hate mail" you've allegedly received. That's really unfortunate. But Atheists [not me, though] are claiming you did hate speech about them. I don't agree with their assessment [i view YOUR opinion on this to be a poorly formed political opinion, at best-no offense])

(And yes, there is the temptation to accuse somebody who doesn't agree with you of hate speech)

(Just because I disagree with you, don't mean that *I* hate you, or anything. I just believe you have mistaken beliefs, and I have no doubt that you would feel the same way about me.)

-------------------

Quote to think about: "We are all atheists. I just believe in 1 less god than you do."

Another quote: "When Christians 'attack'.......it's called Evangelizing"

-------------------

Debbie, my parents tried to indoctrinate me into THEIR version of Christianity for no less than 15 YEARS, since earlier than I can remember. During adolescence I realized that I didn't believe in ANY of the supernatural mumbo-jumbo they tried to convince me of. So now I call myself a non-theist, because I don't believe in a god.

If you could only know 1 think about Atheists, know this: An Atheists' views (should) always be subject to change. Atheism wouldn't exist if religion didn't, it would be redundant. Atheists DON'T know everything, Atheists have QUESTIONS, that religion has never been able to satisfactorily answer.

Debbie, your case of "When Atheists a/k/a Future Muslims Attack" is poorly made at best. You said as much on the CNN panel. I think I speak for Non-theists and atheists alike, when I say that us non-theists find your views on this to be very offensive, and ridiculous. How would you like if I called all CHRISTIANS as being FUTURE MUSLIMS? You would find that offensive, as well, wouldn't you?

Do you not realize that Muslims' view of Atheists is just as worse as their view of Christians? The Quran tells them to kill Atheists and Christians alike.

As far as I know, Atheists generally view Muslims as Neanderthal cave-dwellers. Atheists generally view Christianity also as superstitious cave-dwellers, but admittedly Christianity's stance on many issues do make it a much more logical alternative than Islam, if one had to be chosen (Christianity is the lesser of 2 evils, ironically). Christians are dwelling at the MOUTH of the cave, perhaps, heh.

I myself have debated on an online forum AGAINST a Muslim from the United Arab Emirates; this Muslim kept on trying to convince everybody that the "Eternal Happy Place" exists.

Do you believe in an "Eternal Happy Place", Debbie? Most Christians do. Seems to me that is is CHRISTIANS who are a/k/a FUTURE MUSLIMS.

So, now I've said it.

CHRISTIANS are a/k/a FUTURE MUSLIMS, and they are ON THE ATTACK (ie, EVANGELIZING). RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!

It doesn't seem to take a lot of deep thinking and personal agony to look around, see only what you'd like to see, pronounce God dead and carry on with a life of hedonism and arrogant condescension toward those with a spiritual view of the world.

Do you have a right to live in denial? yes.
Do you have a right to be respected for worshipping yourself and (insert vice)? No.
Should you be respected for your shortsighted willful ignorance disguised as freedom and enlightenment? No.

Interesting those who would destroy the nation and replace it with Godless communism quote Jefferson as though he was anything other than a rich white slave owner. As usual, the gluttony of the self important shines through, wanting it both ways.

Shame has vanished from America in many ways.
Blind leading the blind in endless vain imaginings, ever seeking the truth, but never coming to an understanding.

There are old atheists, but way more young, stupid ones.

Thank you, xtheists.

With your sick, twisted, hate filled posts here you have just proven every thing Debbie, me, and others have said about you is 100% correct.

You xtheists are no more interested in freedom of thought or belief than anyone you rail against.

hi,
Not an atheist, but truly saddened. How many young Christians turn from the faith when they see public Christians acting un-Christ like? How many other religions do you inflame by claiming you should have your right to a public Christmas at the expense of others rights to Yule, Chanukah and Kwanzaa? What about the Rabbi in Oregon that demanded a menorah next to the Christmas trees at the airport? Or the Pagan widow fighting for her husbands right to have a pentacle on his military headstone? How many people of different religions are being oppressed by the Christian right? How long do you believe this will continue?

This country is a Republic to prevent the majority from trampling on the rights of the minority. That is the way it was intended to be set up. It is not a Democracy, a Republic. Take pol 101. The WHOLE reason a president can't be popularly voted into office, is to keep the rights of the minorities secure. What you propose is the opposite. You claim it is a Christian Nation and we should get used to it. While yes, the majority of people are Christian, the government and it's structure was supposed to keep the non-Christians safe from this non-sense...or rather the minorities. What happened in the Republic is a mess, one party took control of all three branches and over rode most of the protections implemented in the Constitution, and to add to it the Democrats didn't even raise an eye brow in opposition. Now we have a polarized, religious, holy war in the media for all the ignorant to rant about. A nice distraction so the politicians, Democrat and Republican, can sell us all out fiscally and morally. They have turned this country into a despot with religion as the spear head and righteousness or lack thereof reason to turn on your neighbor, attack your co workers, deny service to the young and weak, deny jobs for those that are different. THAT is Un-American. Divide and conquer, and be damned the way they do it.
LOOK. We are all in the same boat. We all have to live here. Stop making it unpleasant to live here and start thinking this way...What if in 100 years a new religion came to power? What if a new Church rose from this crisis state and took a firm reign on the despot the politicians have made this to be? What if, heaven forbid, it was Scientologists, or Pagans, or anything you truly hate? By making it easier for your majority status to impose the rule of law, well one need only convert enough people to take control..no Senate to over run with political leaders, no uniformed contract with America, etc...all that sect would need to do is get a president and a public majority to take over. How stupid. The whole country was ruined for the sake of greed and left defenseless by the very people supposed to protect it. Now all the deluded run around screaming at each other because the media says there is a culture war. The war is made up BY the media and politicians. As a result people are openly ridiculed in AMERICA for their beliefs. Disgusting.

What ever happened to "What would Jesus do?" The one who spoke to prostitutes...the one who never hurt a soul...the one most of these zealots CLAIM to worship. Do you really want to meet Jesus in the second coming? Could you honestly stand before him and NOT be afraid?

Think, speak, and be like Christ if you are a Christian. If you are Jewish, act more like it. I have NEVER met a Jewish person SO discriminatory before. Most are sweet people. MOST are thankful to have their family escape oppression from the hands of Hitler. Most remember the Holocaust and the damage intolerance of a religion can cause. MOST are mindful of Gods will...and not a hateful monster. Maybe you and God need a long talk.

.
.
Debbie, I'm an atheist and not a future muslim, or any other religion for that matter. You'd have to be a moron to make such a generalized assumption.

Regardless, I hope more people become atheists because that means there'll be less chance that religious nutcases like you will exist.

Just to make sure I go to 'hell'(hah) - I deny the existence of a holy spirit.

Have a nice day.

mod, that was not helpful at all :(. All you managed to do is cover up a lot of the discussion, make atheists look really stupid, and feed into the Christian Persecution Complex. Please stop, thanks.

Well, I have ti respectfully disagree with you.

Even though you are intentionally attempting to incite us atheists (and judging from this page, you have done that well) and even though your pointless rantings are hate filled, I fully support your right to express them.

I believe when you rant and rave you support our cause more than we ever could!

I saw the CNN video on youtube, the link if you would like it is:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU

For the record, I am against Christianity and Islam, as well as any other religion that claims a supernatural origin to the universe. I believe in the separation of Church and State. (Not only to keep religion out of the government, but to keep government out of religion.)

Enjoy your few minutes in the spotlight! I wish you the best!

-Jim Stryker

At the risk of sounding biased, I have forgone any comments beyond the first ten. Except the spam. I'm not sure what 'mod' hopes to accomplish, but couldn't someone ban him or at least trim his posts to a non-spammish level?

Anyhow, Ms. Schlussel -- I can't seem to take you seriously. Your entire rant has been a circus act, and I congratulate you on gathering so much traffic and publicity from it. You are truly the Paris Hilton of the blogging world right now. I just wish you could find a more positive outlet for your childish attention mongering behavior.

Any claim to ignorance you once had is gone in the day and age of viral marketing, wherein a single comment can spread to millions of people through the internet. To claim that the atheists hounding you are sheep is just to be unwilling to accept the fact that you have angered so many people with your bigotry. It is akin to saying something to the effect of "Just because the Anglicans demanded Protestant subservience, the Protestants are ganging up on the Anglicans like sheep." You attempted to single out an entire spectrum of people following a set of ideals. You succeeded. Don't be surprised when you find they all stand against you with a single voice...

You know what? Forget it. I'm not going to further assist your rise to Republican Champion. I made a rather bold (and quite probably erroneous) assumption that you actually read what other people have to say.. but then we wouldn't be here. The best way to deal with people seeking attention is to ignore them. So sit back, oh so confident in your superiority, and have fun with your own personal 15 minutes.

Wow Debbie, you indeed stirred a hornet's nest by calling a spade a spade! The atheists showed how low they can degrade when they throw out G_d from their lives. Look at the filthy racist posts by 'mod' and the meaningless ultra-defensive posts by other atheist retards.

These atheist morons are fighting with the moslems for the WE_ARE_THE_BIGGEST_ASSHOLES award. I think we should call it a tie and let both the terrorist groups share the award.

Hi Debbie,

Your site was linked to from a very tech oriented social news site whos members tend to be very young and immature.

I just wanted to say that I regret our "belief" is so accessible to such hateful individuals.

After reading your blog I did come to the conclusion that your own commentary is also full of derogatory comments.

Who is right here? Those that spam a blog full of hateful trite or those that use big words to make a blog full of hateful trite?

So I wonder how Debbie would feel if someone gave the same little rant she did on CNN, only substituting "Jews" for "Atheists":

SCHLUSSEL: No, I agree with her 100 percent. I think that the real discrimination is Jews against Americans...Listen, we are a Christian nation...And the problem is that, you have these Jews selectively I believe attacking Christianity. ...I really believe that they are the ones who are the intolerant ones against Christians...They are on the attack. It's obnoxious and they do need to shut up. ...

SCHLUSSEL: (INAUDIBLE) Look where there are more Jews and where they've lost God, where the church is not that strong...That's the one reason our country has not become like Europe because we have strong Christians and because Jews are not strong. And I think that's a good thing.

I'm an atheist and I'd like to apologize for the numbskull who is spamming your site. I'm ashamed that he is probably an atheist as well.

We aren't all bad... :-)

It's obvious by now that you were wrong about nobody having seen your video on CNN so I won't bother restating that.

You say that people who lack belief in anything will fall for nothings. Atheists don't lack belief in anything, they lack belief in a god. We have many beliefs about many things - usually these beliefs are strong and well-supported by evidence.

Your assertion that atheists are a short step away from converting to radical Islam would be humorous if it was intended to be a joke because this is a condtradiction of terms. Atheists believe that Muslims are misled by their belief in a god and their religious texts. We think it's silly that they have these beliefs and we think the world would be a better place if these beliefs didn't exist. Christianity and Islam as equally ridiculous in the eyes of an atheist.

jasper_calhoun:

Re: Video by BACON EATING ATHEIST JEW

Did you watch his video on "blasphemy" ? If you look at it you will see that my comments are accurate. The video is disgusting and so is he.

Hey CarpeDiem:
And what exactly did that video have to do with the subject? Maybe you should try again when you can debate like an adult instead of just saying FATTY FATTY FATTY like a third grader.

Before you write me off as an atheist since it appears that anyone who posts a contrasting point of view on your site is labeled an atheist, let me state that I'm Catholic. On a second note, I would also like to state that I am also a current Bush supporter (but not for the reasons you might expect).

I decided to register in order to comment because I took the time to read through your previous postings as well as the comments posted by your supporters throughout a site to get a general sense of your point of view and the logical arguments (or lack thereof) which you use to make your points. I was hesitant at first to spend the time to make a comment, but I'm tired of the growing trend in America of people using emotions, assumptions as well as stereotypes to create points of view and opinion rather than using actual facts and figures.

One of the main arguments you make in your post is that there is atheists are future Muslims in disguise. I fail to see the connection. You point to two cases of well known Muslims that have atheist associations and use it as evidence to your claim that atheists are future Muslims.

Rather than using any actual statistical methods or facts you've decided to use the negative connotation of certain Muslims in order to override people's sense of logic and reasoning. But you don't seem like the type of person who uses numbers in order to make arguments so I'll follow the same line of argument that you use to derive your conclusions.

Let me first disprove the first argument you made which "Look at famous atheists and what happened to them. Adam Gadahn a/k/a Azzam Al-Amriki--now a top Al-Qaeda video "personality"--was raised by his hippie Jewish father and equally bizarre gentile mother as an atheist. And look how he turned out. Ditto for hippie-spawn John Walker Lindh." Of course I would hardly consider none of these people famous, but I'll play along just to make a point.

The easiest method for me to counter this argument is to list of famous atheists:
Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

Andrew Carnegie: "I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life."

Benjamin Franklin: "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

Would you consider any of the previously listed people above Muslim any any way? If you're willing to say yes, then you may want to take a look again at American history and what these individuals have done for America.

Next off, you made another point of how Europe is quickly becoming Islamic. Taking a look and using actual facts and figures which I will happily cite if requested, I found that the number of people who are stating that they are non-religious in Europe has been growing for the last decade or so (excluding Germany) and although Islam has been growing in Western Europe, there was a direct statistical correlation in terms of Muslim immigration to Europe. Therefore your argument is incorrect. Europe is becoming more Islamic only because there are more Muslim immigrants moving to Europe, not because atheists are converting to Islam.

"Over here, as I pointed out on CNN, atheists are on the attack against religion and G-d only when Christians and Jews are involved, not when Muslims and Islam are"
As I've stated earlier, I'm Catholic. However I'm a staunch supporter of a separation between religion and government. The last thing I want is religion permeating into our current government. The problem with religion is that at the barest level it is an opinion and not a fact. Once you start mixing opinions and facts, you skew logical arguments and thinking. The worse case of this is religious advocates who support the idea that Earth is only 6,000 years old despite clear evidence otherwise. Do you really want this type of material being taught in schools? This is the reason why even as a Catholic, I believe that church and state needs to a strong separation.

There was a reason why the original pledge of allegiance had no mention of god:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." and I strongly support the reasons behind it as would I believe the founding fathers of our nation.

jasper_calhoun:

That video has everything to do with this subject!

You didn't answer my question! Did you watch it?If so, why don't you describe what he is doing in the video?

Then we can all judge exactly who is infantile.

Sigh,
This is all drivel.
do atheists really believe the world would be a better place believing in nothing. How easy it must be to give up the search for greater truth at such an early age.
And as for you
shut the fuck up please
to your "hell" spoon fed ignorance
I'm sure your god is real impressed
I read somewhere that god is love
and isn't the ultimate goal of any religion to model it's prophets and teachings?
people need to throw their televisions out the window and educate themselves.they need to read the teachings of their "god" so that the next time someone spews out this hateful bullshit in the name of a god, people won't respond in such a manner. they will say "hmm, well that doesn't seem right" instead of labeling an entire group.
QUIT LETTING OTHER PEOPLE TELL YOU WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG AND FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF.
that's about all i have to say

Posted elsewhere, but thought I'd share with you fine folks here...

Having only seen that CNN clip and her subsequent comments on here on her blog... I would have bet money that Schlussel was a gag; some caricature of complete stupidity that had somehow garnered a few seconds of notice.

Is it more sad that this woman is real... or that I'm kinda looking forward to watching a gracious group of folk completely and utterly humiliate her on her own website. Who has the popcorn?

Kirk

PS, mod, not cool.

What video are you talking about? I don't see any video in this thread. If you want to play internet detective and track down irrelevant videos that's up to you, but I'll stick to what's actually posted in this thread, and what you posted was pretty damn immature.

Edit: (speaking to CarpeDiem, not Plasticquart)

Yeah...
mod
shut the fuck up
and really, if you can't at least try an say something slightly intelligent or insightful, shut up. I also read a comment by one "the_man"
read what you posted
that's really all i have to say to you
hypocrites
if these are the belifs of supposedly mature adults,
i think I'll stay young (peterpancomplex)
if this woman really believes what she said...
wow.
I also doubt half of you who posted read the whole
shit filled blog
i mean really
im not even offended
just sad
and you should be too

jasper_calhoun:

You are really out of it! You criticized me for what I said about Bacon Boy. (Or have you forgotten that already-if so, check out your previous posts).
I said that my comments about Bacon Boy are justified because he is disgusting, as is evident in his blasphemy video. You act indignant, call me childish, when you are actually a fraud. You don't even bother to look at what you are criticizing me for.
I don't know where you are from, but on this site we generally back up what we say, we don't just make things up. This thread has degenerated due to the freaky atheists.
Anyway, the video is on his site , his link is above.

Or, if you can't comprehend that, go on back to KOS kids where you can play with all the other haters.

CarpeDiem,
Oh, Gosh, I'm soooo sorry! I guess calling someone a fat pig is the height of rational, informed debate on this site. Thanks for proving what I said about the Fundies, though...

jasper_calhoun:

I've helped you prove nothing, except that you are a fraud and make posts without thinking.
You sure have failed the atheist movement tonight!

There is nothing wrong with calling Bacon Boy fat.
Have you seen him? Oh, right..you didn't even look at his site, you are bitching for no good reason.

You atheists sure are a fun group. Are you proud of "MOD" and his trash? He and you are great debaters. Go on, MARKOS is calling you, he wants you back.

CarpeDiem,
Yeah, I looked at his site.

He's fat.

Gee, I guess that means you're better than him. I'm in awe of your brilliant arguments.

Now, I'm an Atheist and I am definitely not an American, even though I have lived there for ten weeks in 2003 (Dallas, TX) and therefore have my own experiences of how religious nutcases like Debbie Schlussel work, but I have to say that I can't understand how on Earth there are people like Schlussel, who are so incredibly stupid in their opinions, which make no sense at all in any single way, babbling about their "facts" on a channel like CNN.

It just makes no sense.

CNN is supposed to be a news channel and having this awfully biased chat about how Atheism is a threat to the great society of Americaland just points out the exact problems you have in USA. Ignorance is a bliss and since Atheism is about IGNORING religion, NO MATTER WHAT RELIGION IT IS, I completely miss the point in this "Atheists are going to convert to Muslims and take over this country" crap.

Where have you been living, Debbie? In what kind of sick mind can one believe that those people, who are ignoring religion, would happily turn into one?

IT'S NOT THE RELIGION we are interested in, so HOWCOME DO YOU FUCKING THINK WE WOULD CONVERT INTO MUSLIMS? There are extreme people with extreme opinions and I think Debbie Schlussel IS AT LEAST AS DANGEROUS AS ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS ZEALOT. Believe me, FINLAND is not becoming a muslim country, BUT I know a lot of people who just don't give a shit about religion. But we go give an awfully big pile of shit, when SOME FUCKING BITCH COMES AND TELLS US THAT WE ARE THE SCUM OF THE EARTH.

Why? What have we done? I'm a happy little programmer doing my job and not doing any suicide bombing against US troops. WHY DO YOU HATE US, Debbie? DIDN'T YOU HAVE ENOUGH TOYS TO PLAY WITH, WHEN YOU WERE A CHILD?

But, however, I have to say that I am proud to be an Atheist now, since I am officially the number one enemy of US and therefore I have achieved a lot in life already. So, thank you, Debbie. Have a nice one. Oh... And FUCK OFF, as well.

jasper_calhoun:

At least we can agree on one thing!

Yes, I'm better than BaconBoy and I bet you are too. Did you watch the video?

BTW, I wasn't trying to make an argument-I was defending my opinion. Taking comments from other posters and putting them together to prove something about 'fundies' is not exactly thinking, is it?

Excuse me, mister...CarpeDiem
you should practice what you preach...
telling mister jasper_calhoun to actually read something?
Aside from his undeniably annoying spam, he posted a real comment and he's not atheist.
Just a heads up...
As far as name calling...
have you not yet reached the stage where you can form full sentences to state you opinion on someone without using the words "fatty"?

Will people please stop saying that atheists believe in nothing?

First of all, it's impossible to have no beliefs so it's kind of silly to say that. Beyond that, religious people need to realize that when you stop believing in a god your life doesn't disintegrate. What mattered to you before - things like family, friends, and living a good life - still matter just as much as they did before.

Atheists can be family centered and live their life in agreement with Christian principles such as kindness and tolerance. I do it everyday... really.

Themachinegunopera:

I can barely write that name, what a wierd name.
I'm NOT preaching anything! What is wrong with you people? Stating an opinion is not preaching. You are entitled to your opinion.

I didn't use the word "fatty" he did! Check the posts. I said BaconBoy was fat, which he is. Jasper agrees with me :) And, yes, I asked Jasper to go back and check what he is referring to, before he criticizes me.

I think that Debbie is Jewish, which is fine. But aren't a highly disproportionate number of ethnic Jews atheists? And isn't Debbie saying that atheists are going to turn into Muslim terrorists?

So if we put 2 and 2 together, isn't Debbie saying that Jews, as a group, represent one of America's greatest Muslim terrorist threats?

Hey, I'm not agreeing with Debbie's thinking, but it seems to be an inescapable conclusion of Debbie's logic. Sounds rather sinister to me!

CarpeDiem,
If hateful, angry quotes about the "evil atheists" doesn't prove something about the mindsets of some of these "Christians", I don't know what does. Just like your namecalling tells us something about you. Anyway, I'm signing off for the night. Feel free to rant away. Oh, and I'm losing my hair too, so feel free to call me a baldy doodoohead. That should earn you a few debating points.

Oh, I forgot to say that Debbie is apparently either running extremely low on IQ or then just otherwise incapable of doing a simple search on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiyJzWy3CDQ

Probably both. Or then she's telling lies about not being able to find one on the net.

Ignatius:

YOU sound quite sinister.

I certainly hope you don't have St. Ignatius as your namesake. I don't think he would approve of your drivel.

First, the ad hominem:
Ms. Schlussel has clearly been cribbing the style of Ann Coulter, having realized that, sadly, for a thin blonde woman in the United States, once the attention-winning limits of modern cosmetic technology have been stretched past their breaking point, the only way she can continue to enjoy the cosmocentric position to which her younger days may have made her feel entitled is to utter something unequivocally insane under the pitiable assumption that any attention is good attention.

Now, the response proper:
The United States is a Christian nation in precisely the same way that it is a White nation, or a Male nation, or, as some would have claimed until quite recently, a Republican nation. Tyranny of the majority was one of the most important concerns of the nation's founders, and a tendency they strove earnestly to hobble. They didn't get it completely right from the outset, but the foundation they laid was for a society where blacks, hispanics, women, democrats, libertarians, jews, catholics, buddhists and even atheists are able to act as full participants in society, not marginalized groups tolerated at the sufferance of a polarized majority. This is the promise of America, and the core of its strength, a strength atrophied in the recently fashionable bigotry of extremist right-wing Americans.

Argument from subversion is the most natural and common tool of the bigot. It exists in the repertoire of every species of hatemonger. The racist claims that "inferior" races breed more quickly than the "pure" race. The homophobe invents a conspiracy of all homosexuals to "convert" straight children. The religious zealot describes how much more zealous and intolerant another faith is. The argument in all cases is the same: if The Good, Pure People are not sufficiently hateful of the Tainted Outsiders (with "hate" mislabeled as "strength"), then They will outmultiply and overtake Us, while We, with our naive aspirations to morality and principled behavior, won't have strength or numbers left to resist them.

Such an argument is a base, shameful thing. It is the province of fearful, irrational animals, not of human beings. Humanity, that nobility to which we must aspire or perish, must judge creatures such as Ms. Schlussel to be an abomination, a retrograde blight on everything we are and may hope one day to become. In her barely-coherent rambling she insists that our salvation from barbarism is to immerse ourselves in that same barbarism. If we are better barbarians than those she claims are standing at the gates, then, goes the argument, we will "win."

Ms. Schlussel would damn us all, so long as her particular flavor of hatred, and not some other, emerges victorious to enslave humanity forever. I fear creatures such as this will always exist within our species, provided they do not succeed in driving us to extinction, but I at least dream of a society where they find their better interests lie in not spewing such evil so shamelessly.

I'd first off like to express my disgust with those who are crapflooding your blog. I think that atheists make the most noise about Christianity simply because it is the majority religion here in the United States. I personaly would have a problem with anybody being pressured to say any prayer. My personal feelings are that religion is no diffrent from superstition. For the most part, I don't have a problem with people having these beliefs. What I do have a problem with is when anyone trys to push these beliefs on others (this includes athiests activly trying to convert anyone else). I'm seriously offended by your assertion that Athiests are likely to become muslim extremists. I think Athiests living in America are one of the LEAST likely groups to convert to ANY religion, simply because these people simply don't like to take things on faith alone.

jasper:

Bald is not all bad you know :-)

I called him fat because he is fat, among a lot of other things. Ciao!

I am almost as appalled by the Atheist response as I am by you and your attitude. Almost. You are proof that the persecution is real. You have no understanding of Atheists at all, but this does not prevent you from running us into the ground on the basis of uninformed stereotypes and personal dislike. It is very unfortunate that all most people know about Atheists is the response to hatred such as yours.

Can you imagine what it is like to be treated as an evil dishonest person by EVERYONE, no matter how much integrity you display? I have had people tell me what a good man I am so many times that I am sick of hearing it, because these same people can't bring themselves to TRUST me. They tell me I'm a good man, and they watch me, waiting for the evil to show. They KNOW it must be there. Have you any idea how this affects a person's relations with their fellow man? Can you comprehend the loneliness, the frustration, and the resentment caused by such treatment?

This is why so few of us are really open with our beliefs. I only know one other Atheist in my area. I knew this man for a year before I knew he was an Atheist. Atheists make up 1 - 4% of the population, so I must know more of them. I suspect that many of us know Atheists who just never told us their views. Look at your attitude, and see if you can figure out why they keep it a secret.

Yes, I learned of the CNN report from a blog. I threw my TV out years ago. The blog I saw said nothing about the report other than "CNN report on Atheist persecution". The blogger simply posted the YouTube video. As I watched the report, I felt great relief. I thought a step had been taken towards understanding. I thought I might actually see the day when I would not have to feel so defiant for simply requiring evidence for the things I base my life decisions on. I don't WANT to be defiant. I don't want to be 'the Atheist' everywhere I go. I just want to live my life in accordance with my conscience. What is so wrong with that? Is this something I should have to hide? I was foolish enough to believe that national television was actually trying to tell people that the abuse I face for my integrity was wrong.

I should have known better. The panel discussion that followed was just like so many reactions I've faced when someone new discovered I was an Atheist. I've heard these same arguments in bars, in smoking facilities at manufacturing plants, in the homes of rednecks down south, on CB radios as truck drivers added Atheists to the list of people they hate, in churches, in offices, and I've heard them from the people who supposedly represent my views in our government. You should be proud of the originality and intelligence of your comments.

It's no wonder that some of us have responded in anger and frustration. I had to wait a day before responding to you, or I would have done the same. We grow weary of this treatment. The surprise is not that some of us are angry, the surprise is that all 3 million of us are not furious every moment of every day about the way we are slandered and mistreated.

No other group of people tolerates such treatment with as little complaint as Atheists. You claim that the handful of responses you received proves your judgment about all 3 million of us? What a silly notion. Most of the Atheists who saw your stupidity simply ignored it. We're used to it. It happens every day.

Ok, I watched Zahn clips. Big deal.

Ad feminam comment:
If you want to deride a blonde-haired woman for being less than compelling intellect, start with anchorblonde Zahn who played dumb (i.e., impartial) while acting as moderator of the sound-byte dreiven "debate."

Pro feminam comment:
I dare anyone leaving or approving of derogatory comments here 1) to attach their real name to them and 2) to direct similarly derogatory comments to that other CNN guest panelist, Karen Hunter, who shares Debbie's contempt for atheists' complaints.

Having watched this debacle unfold live on the television and seeing Debbie 'The Third Reich Should Have Killed Muslims' Sclussel make a complete ass of herself on international live television, I am eagerly waiting Richard Dawkins' complete and utter annihilation of her in the same format.
I am expecting something resembling Richard Feynman's complete and utter annihilation of pseudoscientific claims.
It will be spectacular.

Wow, there is having an opinion and then there is being a total ass. A few of you seriously need to read what you wrote. And you DOUBT that she got hatemail? Heck, some of you are posting pretty hateful. Sad I think.

Debbie, nice wind-up job. I'm sure you'll get a couple of juicy interviews/ high-paid newspaper articles out of it. You clearly aren't stupid, just very tabloid in your style, like the very nastiest and most insidious of the British papers (The Daily Mail, The Daily Express).

I don't know where you get the impression that Europe is 'turning Islamist'. I've lived in Britain all my life, and have travelled extensively in Europe, Asia, and America, and I really don't get back to the UK and think 'Wow, check out how many Muslims there are!'. Just because there were/ are Europeans who questioned the wisdom of messing around in Middle Eastern affairs it doesn't make us Islamist!

Atheists are frustrated by the actions and impositions of theists, and what is done in the name of 'God'. Most just seem to want to live and let live, but the aggressive attitude of so many religious people these days - particular in America and the Middle East - really kind of makes it hard for atheists to live their lives in peace. You're obviously witnessing an outpouring of that frustrating here and now.

The only thing that's coordinated this outpouring is that someone posted the CNN piece on YouTube, and someone else put it on the Digg site. I think it's fair to say that the unpleasant things that were said about atheists were enough to trigger the reaction that's on this site. Again, I think you did a nice wind-up job suggesting that it might have somehow been coordinated by a 'higher power' (that'll be King Atheist, then, in his mighty Castle of Disbelief).

The comments substituting other groups for 'atheist' are pretty spot-on; really, you weren't that far from Nazi territory with some of what was said.

Lastly, I don't know American history that well, but I'm under the impression that Jefferson et al were quite deliberate about the separation of church and state. And I believe that it was during the McCarthy era that 'in God we trust' and 'one nation under God' were added to the American dream.

Don't play the agitation game for self-promotion - it's not nice!

Ive read most of the quotes and i must say, save the immaturity of mod, the christians on this site are quite hateful. Why am i so hated here? Sure america was founded by a group of people being pursecuted against due to their religion, but look what they did when they got here. Is the murder of half the indian population christian? Read the journal of the puritans. You had Mary Rowlandson praising the lord for the chance to wipe these dark skined demons off the face of the earth. Thankfully, we had openminded deist founding fathers who accepted people enough to give us freedom OF and FROM religion.

I love this country....i just hate seeing it turn into something that it was never suppose to be.

halturner,
your point has been made.

"The opposite of the religious fanatical is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not."
Eric Hoffer "The True Believer"

-I do not consider myself an atheist, but rather one of the indifferent. I deny the existance of a deity, but with quiet passivity. I suppose that statement is moot considering I'm writing this, but I do chime in from time to time. The following are some of my thoughts. I make no intention to offend anyone, though it is apparent that these issues are not afforded casual discourse.

-I believe religion is meritious; dare I say utopian, in its intention. Charity, personal accountability, and reason are by no means abhorrent, they are virtues. Does not every faith attest to these principles? Are they not moral doctrine to be held with the same heartfelt regard as sacred text and idols? I often speak of atheists as religious people. Spirituality and God(s) are not necessary prerequisites for religion. Religion is any belief or idea that impassions the heart, envigorates the being to where the exchange of word is frivolous to the force of action. It is human. By reviewing some of the posts on this page and digg (I'm a frequent visitor) my comments would appear draped in validity.

-Atheist's are true believers. Upon introspective, it may become clear to many that they are bonded closer to jews and gentiles than comfort would allow. Many atheists may see the religious institutions of this nation as pilferers of liberal autonomy, the fruit of our revolution and history. Conversely it would appear that those institutions and individuals loathe the atheist with similar accord. The cycle is enduring to no end and engaged with wreckless fervor by both camps. We will always disagree, but will we tolerate these disagreements as inherent flaws of coexistance?

-There are so many problems that we face. These matters are of no pertinence to the annals of history. The episodic should not outweigh what will be. We are blindly distracted by our own ignorance as what could have been silently fades into oblivion.

-Debbie, please don't consider atheists an enemy comparable to the fundamentalist islamic fanatic. I hope that you understand that many believe in the same ideals (liberty, democracy, ethics) that you fear they seek to destroy. I apologize if I'm misconstruing your beliefs, though I imagine you hold some as dear as I.

-I have to study tomorrow so I'll part with one final thought that I've had as of late: If blame falls on the christians for the decay of our society, they find solace blaming amorality. If on the atheists, will they not blame god?

-Hope to see you in Montana.

Ive read most of the quotes and i must say, save the immaturity of mod, the christians on this site are quite hateful. Why am i so hated here? Sure america was founded by a group of people being pursecuted against due to their religion, but look what they did when they got here. Is the murder of half the indian population christian? Read the journal of the puritans. You had Mary Rowlandson praising the lord for the chance to wipe these dark skined demons off the face of the earth. Thankfully, we had openminded deist founding fathers who accepted people enough to give us freedom OF and FROM religion.

I'd just like to point out that, if Muslim extremists had their way, atheists would be the FIRST people getting their heads chopped off. Islam has some history of (grudging) tolerance for Christianity and Judaism, since all three religions worship the same, single God, and share many traditions and much history. The sort of strict Islam followed by al-Qa`ida has NO tolerance for atheism. Public declarations of atheism are CRIMINAL is some Muslim countries, sometimes punishable by death!

So trust me, atheists have NO desire to support extremist Islam. They have more reason to fear it than do Christians, and the Islamic extremists wouldn't WANT their support. Atheists oppose theocracy, whether it is Muslim theocracy, Christian theocracy, Buddhist theocracy, or whatever. It is very faulty logic to conclude that just because a couple of atheists became Muslim extremists that there is some sort of connection between Muslim extremism and atheism. More Christians convert to Islam than do atheists, I am sure.

Finally, it is worth mentioning that one of the basic principles behind separation of religion and government is to protect RELIGION. The first people to protest against prayer in public schools were not atheists; they were Catholics who didn't want their children forced to recite Protestant prayers. The first legal objection to the Pledge of Allegiance in schools was not lodged by atheists, but by Jehovah's Witnesses, who considered it a form of idolatry. Keeping government out of religion and religion out of government is GOOD for religion. One reason religion continues to thrive in the US is because it is free from government interference. Once the government starts tinkering with faith, faith is diminished.

Remember that in Europe, where you say "Christianity is rapidly dying," many countries still have state-funded churches and official religions. The fact that the Church of England gets tax money hasn't kept the British believing in God (less than 50% do, IIRC). Do you want your prayers being written by the same people who run Medicare?

Atheists, for the most part, don't care when or how or if you pray, as long as you don't make it mandatory, and you give ALL beliefs an equal chance to be expressed. The day a Muslim tries to FORCE an American public-school kid to pray to Mecca, or insists on displaying to Qur'an ALONE in public buildings, I'm sure the ACLU will be the first in line to sue. In the meantime, they are busy defending the rights of CHRISTIANS to protest against acceptance of homosexuality ( http://www.aclu.org/religion/frb/28163prs20070129.html ) and to sing religious songs in school ( http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/27673prs20061212.html ).

I was wondering. If atheists just need to shut up, Debbie, maybe you would like to debate Richard Dawkins. Sam Harris, or Dennis Dennet and shut up the mainstream of Atheism? If you are so certain, or knowledgable of your faith, surely you wouldnt dream they would embarrass you on national tv.

First of all, a youtube copy of your shameless rip on atheists has appeared. The fact that you can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. (I will add links here later). I, personally, had the privilege of seeing your extreme prejudice go undisputed.

As for your claims that atheists are future muslims, and that all muslims are america-hating extremists, I will say the same thing I say to those who claim that there is a god above us: evidence please. If you can cite reputable statistics showing that a high percentage of atheists turn into muslims later in their life, I might believe you. Otherwise, your claims are exactly that: claims. Currently, there is as much proof that atheists are weak-minded future muslims as there is that jews are greedy maniplators or that blacks are of inferior intelligence. You might understand why I don't rush to believe you.

Speaking of which, I have to wonder how you, as a jew, would feel if a similar panel, assembled from a member of the KKK, a Neo-Nazi and a holocaust denier was asked "why do jews garner so much hate?" I doubt you'd be very pleased. Still, you have no qualms with your segment. Not to say that I am immune to hypocrisy, but that is its embodiment.

Debbie, the CNN video is here.
I know a fair number of atheists. They reject Islam as much as they do Christianity; to the extent you might get an atheist to think about anything even vaguely resembling religion, you may be able to get them interested in Buddhism (specifically Zen Buddhism). The young and/or silly may adhere to Ayn Rand for a while as well.

Finally, extremists seem to do a great job of finding each other. You articulated a rather extreme (imho) viewpoint in a very public place; the result is that extremists who disagree with you came to visit your blog and inbox. Not really a shocker. Personally, I find the whole thread funny and sad at once.

What if I told you I wasn't an atheist but a secular humanist?

Then what if I said that I was an atheist *and* a secular humanist?

The United States is not a christian nation because it does not behave in a way that Jesus Christ would endorse. I can say I'm a Red-Tailed Hawk, but since I have no feathers and cannot fly, the lie will become obvious soon enough. Such is the case with the claim that the U.S. is a christian nation. 85% of it's citizens may pay lip service to it and say "I"m a christian!", but the fact of the matter is that the U.S. as a nation, and it's citizens individually, behave in a manner that would make Jesus Christ ashamed that his name is associated with it. The U.S. is governed by Greed, Envy, Pride, Wrath, Lust, Gluttony, and Sloth. Forgiveness and Love, the true behavior endorsed by Jesus Christ, are foreign concepts to the American people, and yourself in particular Debbie. Say what you will about being a christian nation, the fact of the matter is, it is a nation of materially enamored automatons who care only about their possessions and wealth.

um, muslims arent the enemy either baby. why dont u come by to Baruch College in NY and tell all the kids there that muslims are enemy, along with a couple godless heathens. it is simply counterproductive to be so ignorant in your rants. This is not about whether the US is a Christian Nation, or whether the child rearing techniques of some hippy turn kids into taliban. Muslims are not the enemy, no more then hippies or yuppies or people who like putting sweaters on a dog. the enemy, my dear intrepid journalist, is ignorance.

this is to all the people who claim that america is a christian nation

A poll done by Harper's Bazaar ( http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html )takes a closer look at americas christian population and discovers just how deep our nations devotion to God really is. The poll finds;

Only four in ten Americans can name more than four of the Ten Commandments
Astonishingly, even to me, only half can name even one of the four gospels
12% of Americans - which is something in excess of thirty million people - believe that Joan of Arc was Noah's wife.
And finally, three-quarters of Americans - very nearly the nation's entire Christian population - believe that the Bible teaches that "God helps those who help themselves". This maxim was actually uttered by Benjamin Franklin, and appears nowhere in scripture

Another theological study ( http://www.theologicalstudies.citymax.com/page/page/1573625.htm )goes further into depth about what American Christians believe. This is what they found:

When given thirteen basic teachings from the Bible, only 1% of adult believers firmly embraced all thirteen as being biblical perspectives
Less than one out of every ten believers possess a biblical worldview as the basis for his or her decision-making or behavior
One-third could not identify Matthew as an apostle from a list of New Testament names
When asked to locate the biblical book supplying a given story, one-third could not find Paul's travels in Acts, half did not know that the Christmas story was in Matthew, half did not know that the Passover story was in Exodus.

This biblical illeteracy does not speak well for religion and its supposed hold on our nation. After all, how deep can ones devotion be if they have not taken the time to learn even the most basic facts about their holy book? I will admit that the bible is a poorly written, tedious bore of a book, but that excuse should not exist for devout children of God.

What these studies and polls really show, is that a majority of people who don't read the bible are religious. Furthermore, with such an ignorance of its contents, religious people who have not read the bible often turn away from Christianity upon reading it Take a look at these Deconversion stories for proof. Those stories show that the authors were Christian until they actually read the Bible, and discovered for themselves the atrocities, absurdities, and contradictions it contains.

While i am sure this next bit will offend some of you, it bears mentioning none the less. This study shows that there is an inverse relationship between religiosity and intelligence.

In 1986, Burnham P. Beckwith, wrote on "The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith" for the sceptic magazine Free inquiry. He summarized studies on religiosity and its relation with attributes that he considered positively linked with intelligence. The conclusion was that all but four of the forty-three polls listed seemed to indicate that the amount of religious faith vary inversely with intelligence (for American students and adults). Although conceding that it was easy to find fault with the studies he reviewed, "for all were imperfect", Burnham contended that those studies, taken together, provided strong evidence for an inverse correlation between Intelligence and Religious Faith in America.

In other words, the more religious you are, the less smart you are.

That statement is further backed up by a study of SAT scores among religious and non-religious people. (taken from the above link)

Regan Clarke investigated the issue. In the study, religious behavior and the idea of prayer fulfillment were found to have a mild negative correlation with self-reported Quantitative SAT (QSAT) scores. Given the results, the author suggests that the negative associations among QSAT, religiosity, and prayer fulfillment may be due to (a lack of) learned skills in reasoning

Though they stress mild, the negative correlation is there. The more religious you are, the less developed your quantatative and reasoning skills are. After all, if you take so much of life on faith, you dont really have to figure anything out do you?

I could ramble on about this for hours, however i will make my final point. the fires of evolution have spent over four billion years forging us into an engine of staggering complexity and computational power. We have been given a unique and priceless privilege, a gift unlike anything else in the known universe; the ability to use rational thought. To understand this heritage can only uplift us, and those who would assert that we can accomplish nothing on our own without the help of fading shadows of superstition, are only cheating themselves by replacing a greater wonder with a far lesser one.

Carpe Dieme, you are of the wilful ignorant ilk.
Yes, I can stand to lose 15-20 pounds. What does that have to do with my posts?
The video you refer to is for the Blasphemy Challenge, it has nothing to do with this topic, and I labeled the video "comedy" on Youtube.

My last post on my blog is completely on topic though, if you are capable of intellectual debate you should be only attacking it:
http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.com/

Wow, you truly are a hate monger. Looking at your statement, you clearly have a hatred of Muslims.

You hate muslims so much in fact that you have to lump Atheists (not muslims) as more or less the same group, and as co-conspirators against America.

I was deeply offended by the statements that you made on CNN. I watched the video on YouTube and did not see it live. So, you are ignorant regarding the availability of the video. I was compelled to write Paula Zahn Now with a letter regarding my disappointment.

I did not spam your inbox. I did not even think to write you. Until I saw on Digg that not only did you not think about your previous statements and perhaps understand that they make you appear like an ignorant racist and biggot.

Not all muslims are anti-semitic. Not all atheists are anti-Christian. My utter lack of faith is why I am an atheist.

I personally disapprove of the "new atheist" movement because they have taken the term atheism and applied it to some spaghetti monster spewing diatribe against all religion. Not all atheists are like this. You clearly are a sorry ignorant excuse of a human that cannot take the time to see this or understand this.

I'M SORRY EVERYONE. PLEASE STOP EMAILING AND CALLING ME. I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE.

EVER SINCE I HEARD THE SOUND OF MY ANNOYING VOICE AFTER WATCHING THE CNN VIDEO THAT I THOUGHT DIDN'T EXIST ON THE INTERWEBS, I CRIED MYSELF THROUGH 30 BAGELS. DO I REALLY SOUND THAT ANNOYING?

ALSO, FOR THE RECORD, MY PENIS IS SMALLER THAN ANN COULTERS.. BUT I DO THAT THING WITH MY TONGUE, AND SHE LOVES IT WHEN I DO THAT.

ALSO TO EVERYONE AT DIGG: I'M SORRY. YOU GUYS ROCK.

I'M GOING NOW BECAUSE I'VE BEEN SHUTDOWN FASTER THAN WINDOWS 98. I DENOUNCE BEING A JEW, I'M NOW JUST JEW-ISH.

OH, ALSO, YOU'RE THE MAN NOW DOG.

YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY SIR!

I had the priviledge of watching both segments yesterday on YouTube. Everybody has opinions and I have no problem with opinions.

However to belittle any population group based on faith (Atheists have as much faith in their beliefs as Theists), simply perpetuates ignorance as opposed to meaningful discussion. I studied religion in college, married a religious lady, and have great respect for the beliefs of others. I find the general principles of Christianity provide a reasonable temple for a good society.

I also find no need to believe in an invisible man, no need to curb the reality of death by promising eternal life, and find justification for tax exempt status based on religious values offensive. I have no problem with the text on our money, holiday displays (like like to give and receive too), and I enjoy Christmas trees and the Easter Bunny.

However "beliefs" are best taught within the family structure and kept out of our public schools. I think that people engaged in public discussion should, from an ethical perspective, at least make an honest effort to not belittle the personal beliefs of others.

I had the priviledge of watching both segments yesterday on YouTube. Everybody has opinions and I have no problem with opinions.

However to belittle any population group based on faith (Atheists have as much faith in their beliefs as Theists), simply perpetuates ignorance as opposed to meaningful discussion. I studied religion in college, married a religious lady, and have great respect for the beliefs of others. I find the general principles of Christianity provide a reasonable temple for a good society.

I also find no need to believe in an invisible man, no need to curb the reality of death by promising eternal life, and find justification for tax exempt status based on religious values offensive. I have no problem with the text on our money, holiday displays (like like to give and receive too), and I enjoy Christmas trees and the Easter Bunny.

However "beliefs" are best taught within the family structure and kept out of our public schools. I think that people engaged in public discussion should, from an ethical perspective, at least make an honest effort to not belittle the personal beliefs of others.

Firstly, I would like to posit that atheists are people. I hope you can accept this, however much you may dislike atheists. Secondly, I would like to posit that many people are stupid. This includes plenty of atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and any other variety of person out there. You have unfortunately managed to attract a slew of the stupid atheists to this post who feel the urge to comment-bomb your page with the word "whore" repeated hundreds of times. This is, I hope we can agree, stupid. Hopefully you can gather from this that I do not think that anyone who is an atheist is automatically super cool and smart, and hopefully you might be willing to consider for a moment that I'm at least sort of cool and at least somewhat intelligent. Unlike the idiots above, I don't feel the urge to yell at you. That's unproductive and won't make either of us feel any better or learn anything.

I would like to make a few points. I will first make them succinctly, and then explain them.

1 - The segment is available to watch online.
2 - Atheism is not equivalent to, a preliminary stage of, or an indicator of an inevitable path to Islam.
3 - America is not a Christian nation.
4 - We're not being obedient to a higher power by coming here to "attack" you.
5 - It is a logical fallacy to conclude that just because there exist people who were brought up by atheists or hippies who became Muslim that anyone who is brought up in such a manner will end up Muslim.
6 - Not all Muslims are evil.
7 - Atheists are not specifically ant-Christian.
8 - Atheist don't believe "nothing."

To elaborate:
1 - The segment is available online. Try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiyJzWy3CDQ&eurl= for the first half and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU&eurl= for the second half.

2 - Atheism does not equal or imply Islam. Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity. Call that deity God, Yahweh, Krishnah, Allah, Zeus... Whatever you call it, atheists don't believe in it. Allah is inarguably a theistic concept, and as such, atheists don't believe in it. Of course it is perfectly possible for an atheist to become a Muslim. Or a Christian, or a Jew, or a Hindu. It is also perfectly possible for any of these to become an atheist, or to switch to a different religion. Atheists are most likely to remain atheists, not to become Muslims.

3 - America is not a Christian nation. I'm not sure precisely what you mean when you claim it is. You could either be saying that our founding fathers founded this nation as a Christian nation, or that our nation has become a Christian nation. If you mean that America is and has always been a Christian nation, that is patently false. In 1796, the United States signed a treaty with Tripoli. This treaty states among other things that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." John Adams read this treaty in its entirety in front of Congress. Congress ratified it unanimously, which was only the third time Congress had done anything at all unanimously. Obviously it was a point of little controversy. If, however, you are saying that the United States has since become a Christian nation, then its founding state is of little importance. However, this nation as its foundation has the Constitution. If we remove a piece of that Constitution by any means other than official amendment, we are not really America anymore. The Bill of Rights is a part of the constitution. The first amendment guarantees, among other things, freedom of religion. And actually, this is the precise same thing as freedom from religion. If you can't fathom this, imagine another freedom we all know and love: freedom of speech. It would be ridiculous to imply that we don't have freedom from speech. It would be absolutely absurd to insist that we have the freedom of speech as long as we're saying something. It's equally absurd to insist that we have the freedom of religion as long as we believe in a god. If we're even going to pretend to be a nation with the Constitution as our foundation, we have to accept that freedom from religion is as legitimate a right as the freedom of religion.

4 - We're not being obedient to a higher power by coming here to "attack" you. So an atheist blog talked about the CNN segment, and suggested that we write CNN to complain and come here to complain. If these blogs had merely talked about the segment, we still would have written to express our outrage. It's not as though we have to be told that we are outraged. We actually have our own thoughts, as unbelievable as it may seem. Our brains work. I don't want to suggest that an atheist is some sort of ultimate rebel who will never obey a higher power. Most atheists, just like most other people, are law-abiding citizens. I think that proves the point.

5 - It is a logical fallacy to conclude that just because there exist people who were brought up by atheists or hippies who became Muslim that anyone who is brought up in such a manner will end up Muslim. It is about as fallacious as saying "John and Jane both fell out of trees when they were three, and now they both have PhDs and are making $93000 per year, therefore anyone who falls out of a tree when he or she is three will end up highly educated and paid well!" I hope you recognize the ridiculousness.

6 - Not all Muslims are evil. Please don't construe this as my having any special attachment or special desire to defend Islam rather than any other religion. You simply seem to have a special desire to attack it, and I figure it needs some defense. Atrocities have been committed in Christianity's name (crusades, inquisition, etc.). Atrocities have been committed in Islam's name (9/11, etc.). Atrocities have been committed in the name of just about everything imaginable. Not all Christians think the inquisition was a good thing (indeed, very few of them think that). Not all Muslims think that 9/11 was a good thing (indeed, very few of them think that). Muslims are not any more horrendous than any other group of people.

7 - Atheists are not specifically anti-Christian. We generally think that all theists are ridiculous, not just Christians. The reason we appear to be anti-Christian is simply that our society is predominantly Christian (note there is a difference between our nation being Christian and the people of our nation being largely Christian). Think of it this way. If you were being mauled by a bear and stung by an ant, which one would you be trying to get away from? I'd wager you'd be trying to get away from the bear. It's a lot stronger and can as such do you a lot more harm. Similarly with Christianity in our society. It's the strongest, it is in positions of power, and it is definitely at times attacking us. That's why we seem to care more about it than Islam or another religion. If I lived in the UAE, I would care more about Islam, as that would be the most pressing threat to my atheism. I personally, just for the record, am just as outraged by a Muslim prayer at a school as I would be by a Christian prayer at a school.

8 - Atheists don't believe "nothing." We believe in plenty of things. We believe on fairly good evidence that when we drop something, it will fall. We believe on fairly good evidence that species, given enough time, will change somewhat to be better suited to their respective environments. We believe in all sorts of the same mundanities that almost every human believes. We simply don't happen to believe that there's an old man in the sky who created the world, tells us what we have to do, and will do something with us after we die. One's opinion on theism isn't one's only belief.

I'd also like to address another logical misstep you seem to make. It seems that you think that if we take "In God We Trust" off of our money or "under God" out of our pledge, we are stepping on religion's toes. This is unequivocally not the case. Saying "In God We Trust" is stating an affirmative belief in God. Not saying "In God We Trust" is -not- stating an affirmative belief in God, but rather stating absolutely nothing about God. We don't want to say "In God We Don't Trust" or "one nation that is most definitely not under God." That's not the point. We just don't want our government saying anything about God at all. That doesn't imply that the government is atheist, and that doesn't imply that its people are either. People in that case would be perfectly free to be atheist or theist without being attacked in any way.

I'm sorry for all the immature people comment-bombing your post with trifling inanities.

tnthub, I agree with most of your post but you are wrong about Atheism being a faith.
I am an Atheist because I have concluded that there is absolutely no proof that God exists, and there is proof that man makes up Gods (historically we can look at any religion for this). There is no reason for me to believe in a God or Gods the same as there is no reason for me to believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Is not believing in the Tooth Fairy a faith?

America was founded on freedom, not on religion.

All the comments about your ignorance on the subject have already been said multiple times it seems, so I will comment on Atheists not beleiving in anything, as this statement is completely false and couldn't be further from the truth.

While it is true we do not believe in a divine being, that does not in anyway mean that we don't beleive in truth, justice, morality, and the overall goodness of people. Just because you do not beleive in a god doesn't all of a sudden make these virtues go away, or any harder to follow. Sure christian, muslim, jewish, buddhist teachings are good sources for a moral base, but they are all dogma based on basic societal principals that has been morphed to fit into their particular religions agenda, and ALL have changed over the years to better fit into the current state of their followers.

When you come out and tell Atheists to shut up, do you think they actually will because you say so? like anyone, they will defend themselves, as you made such bold statements last week, i'm sorry that feel like your being attacked, but well like everyone else, your accountable for your actions.

Its just too bad that you have a such a bigot attitude towards this group, and you should realize, that most atheist hold alot of the same family and moral values as you do. and like any group there are always ignorant people within, the bes thing to do is just ignore them (i am talking about the unproductive, spammers and attackers on the post) as they dont contribute to overall society, but there are people with real views and valid points, just keep everything in mind.

You are a sad excuse of a person. You are making blind accusations about a segment of the population you know nothing about. It is people like you who are no better than Muslim extremists (not redundant). You blindly judge a group of people without even taking the time to learn anything about them. It is people like you who will lead this country down a path to destruction from your over zealous hatred of anything that is not like you. This country was NOT founded as a Christian nation. Most of the founding fathers were inded Christians but they knew the importance of seperating church and state. When you have a state sanctioned religion you end up with Iran, Iraq, any of the Middle East countries. While I am not an athiest I do not agree with "they need to shut up." People like you need to shut up and learn to respect, not just tolerate, other peoples views, wether you agree with them or not. THAT is what this country was founded on, not some fictional collection of stories.

Ironic, isn't it, that the African-American woman had the gall to tell another minority to "just shut-up". I wonder, would she have obeyed such a thing 50 years ago?

I have to thank both Debbie and that other woman for making me get off my complacent rear and join American Atheists. Clearly, we need to be shouting louder as it is also clear that theists don't have a clue what atheism is about. I wonder, where do theists get all these goofy conspiracy theories about atheists? We simply don't believe in your gods. That's it. We don't hate you, we don't want to silence you, we're not out to destroy religion. In fact, I could not possibly care less what goofy fairytales you want to believe in, insofar as you don't try to legislate me into believing the same nonsense.

But no, I will not "just shut up". Hooray for free speech! How utterly anti-American to tell someone else to "just shut up".

~~~~~~~~~

"Conversely, there is absolutely no proof that God does NOT exist. Hence, this is a matter of belief."

There is also no proof that there isn't a diamond the size of Texas buried in your anus. But, I think it's pretty safe to say there isn't. Such is the case with your gods. Extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence. After thousands of years and thousands of gods, there hasn't been proof of one of them. And no, holy texts do not count as proof of anything other than the human tendency to believe whatever is placed in front of them.

P.s. Debbie - this country already has an Anne Coulter and a Michelle Malkin. This brainless bigot act you've got going is deriviative. There's nothing worse than being unoriginal.

First we had Islamo-fascists now Atheo-fascists? I submit that Debbie Schlussel and her ilk are either JudeoChristo-fascists or Christo-fascists you can take your pick. After all they are the ones that are screaming "Shut up!" and THEY are the ones that are opposed to the constitution and the separation of Church and State.

Nowhere on the net, huh? Notice the date that it was posted was Tuesday, February 06, 2007, genius.

I want to address the whole atheists turning into Muslim extremists thing. First as far as I know John Walker Lind was catholic before he converted to Islam. Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Penn Jillette, Angelina Jolie all atheists, Salman Rushdie raised Muslim and now an atheist. Not exactly a rush of really famous atheists turning to Islam but a famous atheist who was Muslim. Not a representative sample to be sure but then neither were the two you gave. Since we atheists do not believe in ANY gods or goddesses why you think we would be at all attracted to Islam is a complete mystery to me. I foe one oppose all theocratic movements by they Christian, Muslim, Hindu or anything else. I would never deny any one the right to practice whatever superstition they want but when someone uses their religious beliefs as a basis for making laws that threaten me and my community (I am a bisexual trans-woman) then I will fight back. I expect laws to be based on rational reasoning not on three thousand year old fairy tales. Religion is not immune from criticism when it move from the private to the public sphere.

the usa is a christian nation? in what way? because our founding fathers were mostly christian? well, they were also white and male... since you are neither, maybe it's you who should "shut up".

oh, and for the record, our founding fathers weren't exactly christian theists as you would have it:
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/debate.htm

hmmm... conflated you (who is white) with karen hunter (who is not white). sorry, your venom sounds the same... and regardless, my point still stands.

To all you atheist "intellectuals" represented here:first,admit you're just a bunch of real-life caricatures best represented as pie targets for 'The Three Stooges',second-atheism died-at the latest in 1964 when John Coltrane dedicated his album 'A Love Supreme' to God(it should've finally died by the end of the twentieth century as it was responsible for the worst atrocities of the 20th century-I guess some of you fools will argue that Hitler used "God" in speeches);finally,maybe you can move somewhere where there are Sylvan Learning Centers that teach Remedial Reading 101-America's founders believed in the values stemming from The Bible-dat means Old Testament and New Testament.

Congratulations Debbie, you've inspired a new commandment straight from God: http://www.blogofthegods.com/2007/02/08/debbie-schlussel-inspires-new-commandment-from-god/

Since I seem to be the "atheist blogger" (oh, excuse me...I meant "higher power") who sent all my godless minions to perturb you, I thought I'd mention that I have responded to your comments here:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/02/debbie_schlussel_might_become.php

I really don't think it's hypocritical or inconsistent for people to believe in me -- I've got a birth certificate and a driver's license and everything.

Quotes from Dogma (Kevin Smith)

Rufus the 13th Black Apostle played by Chris Rock

RUFUS talking about Jesus:
He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets
carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, but especially the factioning of
all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always,
built a belief structure on it.

BETHANY:Having beliefs isn't good?

RUFUS:
I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a
belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from
idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit
growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.

I REREAD your post Debbie, and it is excellent.

HOW ANYONE could accuse you of being an Ann Coulter knock-off…is simply, plainly, wrong.

They just haven’t read your posts and have an incredible ability to gloss over glaring distinctions. You bring a personal, AND a moderately, but distinctly, Jewish flavour to each of your posts.

Debbie, wouldn’t it be great to rebuild America, indeed North America, with Judeo-Christian values?

IT WOULD be nice if we could put all atheists in some special “roped off” corner of globe, while Catholics, other Christians, and Jews rebuilt North America into a modern Camelot!

Hey, don’t poke me just yet…I’m enjoying this dream!!

Returning……I stand in disbelieve at the incredible hatred, insults and personal attacks some of these atheists have shamelessly leveled against you.

May calamity enter their household~

In a general response to your post…EUROPE is like one giant personification of JUDAS ISCARIOT…except worse.

JUDAS sold his faith for petty change.

Europeans threw their faith away for NOTHING.

Let ISLAM overtake them, and let us hope that is the judgment of God for them. Let Islam bring the chaos into their lives that Islam distributes EVERYWHERE and that Europe has now earned.

HISTORICALLY…Europe has been “there” before.

WHILE JESUS rejected the gift (the temptation of large-scale control) by the ruler of “this world”…it seems ATHEISTS and MUSLIMS would clearly jump at that offer…anything…ANYTHING… to throw off that Judeo-Christian yoke!

So Debbie you are quite right. ISLAM and ATHEISM are “brothers” in disbelief.

BOTH are UNINSPIRED religions, purely man-made, one actually delusional, the other without any religious stirrings at all. BUT THEY are BOTH presently evolving toward collaboration…

And to the earlier “statistical genius”, societal momentum is very real and very hard to accurately track~

ATHEISTS think they have solid arguments against the Catholic Faith but really they were just too self-satisfied to “seek and find”. There are many layers to the Holy Scriptures and for Jesus to link together, explain and confound all these texts with so original a “take” and for him not be “something” more as He declared…requires MORE FAITH than I have, brother Atheist!

So ATHEISTS enjoy THIS LIFE……it’s all you have~

FOR YOU OTHERS…Jesus says “take up your cross”……if you want…you don’t have to…only if you actually want…

Something more.

Debbie, Aside from the extreme showing of intolerance that you exhibit, I am a bit offended at the way you as a Jewish woman defend the rights of Christians over the rights of atheists. As others have mentioned, prayer was not excluded from schools, only school (ie. government) imposed prayer. This school imposed prayer offended, not only atheists, but many non-Christians as well. I don't know about you, but having been brought up in a Jewish family, I felt quite uneasy, as a child, having to be part of school sponsored, "christian prayers". As an adult, I can emotionally separate myself from such an exclusionary activity, but as a child it made me quite uncomfortable. Your attitude, as a Jewish woman, seems to me not only intolerant, but it sounds like you have given yourself over to what you call a "christian country". I expect many Christians to voice this opinion (although wrongly), but I am surprised to hear a woman declare herself a Jew and and call this a "christian country" in the same breath. You must either feel very alienated as a Jew in a "christian country", or you must be very confused. I put the phrase "christian country" in quotes because as Thomas Jefferson has said many times "We are not a christian Country". We are a free country where everyone is entitled to their own beliefs (even to believe in the absence of a higher power), where just coincidentally, the majority of the people are christian. Your intolerance makes you neither a good Jew nor a good christian.

PREVIOUSLY, I meant to say:

"IT WOULD be nice if we could put all atheists in some special “roped off” corner of THE globe, while Catholics, other Christians, and Jews rebuilt North America into a modern Camelot!"

@ The Canadien

You are missing the Sarcasm quotes around your post.

Oh, lil' Debbie. If an atheist like me who has never launched a lawsuit or interrupted a prayer happens to mutter something derogatory about that stupid panel but doesn't send any e-mail around for you to see it, is she still a "Muslim?" News to me. Well, allahu akhbar, sistah.

This "There's no freedom from religion" 'tude is, like, so two cupcakes ago! Sure, you may say that the choice of diets doesn't give one freedom from dieting, but call out the National Guard honey, because I've already scarfed all your chocolate.

And this atheist chick can eat anything she wants and not gain weight.

That's a threat, BTW. ;-)

"Conversely, there is absolutely no proof that God does NOT exist. Hence, this is a matter of belief."

"...Extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence. After thousands of years and thousands of gods, there hasn't been proof of one of them. And no, holy texts do not count as proof of anything other than the human tendency to believe whatever is placed in front of them."

VeraV,

There is no way to prove or disprove God's existence, although both Aquinas and Leibniz made logical cases FOR God's existence.

The denial of God's existence is just as much an 'extraordinary claim' as the assertion of God's existence. Over three billion people believe in a monotheistic god. How many atheists are there in the world? Historically, God's existence was the prevalent belief. Thus, it is the denial of God's existence that is 'extraordinary'. Hence, it requires evidence of which you have none.

You are entitled to your belief and I am entitled to mine.

By the way, I was an atheist when I was in college. I was arrogant enough to believe that humanity was the highest form of existence and the God was a silly superstition. Experience has provided me with the wisdom to see my error of false pride. I will pray that you and all your atheist comrades receive the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and come to the Light.

I don't know that you mean to be funny, but your appearance on Paula Zahn Now made me laugh. Um, yeah, I'm just as upset if my daughter's teachers lead her in Muslim prayers as Christian ones. Sure, most of her classmates are Christian, but I expect their parents to teach them to pray, not their teachers. My daughter's teacher even has a picture of Jesus on her desk, and I'm OK with that, as long as she does not belittle my daughter in any way- including trying to teach her religion. ANY religion! That is my job. And I do teach her about religions and their place in history and psychology.

But the purpose of my entry was to let you know that you made my 10 year old daughter cry and ask, "Why do they hate us so much?" Perhaps you've forgotten that we are real people with real feelings, even though we are in the minority. So consider this a gentle reminder....

Susan

"There is no way to prove or disprove God's existence,"

Right, and I have not said otherwise. What I did say, in case you didn't take the time to read it, was that to say "prove me it's not so" is the goofies of logical fallacies.

The deeper point was that as there is no evidence either way, to claim that you *know* god to exist is foolish. Atheists, in my experience, do not say "I *know* god does not exist". Rather they say "I have seen no evidence that suggests god does exist". A subtle difference, but a difference.

"The denial of God's existence is just as much an 'extraordinary claim' as the assertion of God's existence."

No, it's simply the most logical position to take given the incredible lack of evidence. I don't believe in the existence of unicorns either. Or the Easter Bunny. Such are gods.

"Over three billion people believe in a monotheistic god."

Millions of people watch American Idol. Millions of people hack of the foreskins of their sons for no apparent reason. Millions of people jump out of airplanes. What's your point? Plenty of people do plenty of silly things. This is the Bandwagon logical fallacy.

"How many atheists are there in the world?"

Ah, I see. So the majority is right. So I suppose if billions of people start to believe that the world is in fact flat, they are right? DO you see the problem yet?

"Historically, God's existence was the prevalent belief."

And I suppose if all your friends jumped off a bridge, you'd jump too. Argumentum ad antiquitatem logical fallacy.

" Thus, it is the denial of God's existence that is 'extraordinary'."

Actually, I agree. Since the religious are ardent about brainwashing their young very early, being able to break that programming is a bit extraordinary. Thanks.

"Hence, it requires evidence of which you have none."

I see. So, *I* require evidence that something is *not* so. (this, btw, is the argumentum ad ignorantiam logical fallacy). Okay. I'll try again to illustrate how silly this suggestion is. I require evidence that you are not, in fact, an alien. Like Alf, or E.T. or Mr. Spock. If you don't prove it, than I am forced to believe that you are.

(see how silly that "prove to me it isn't so" thing is?)

"You are entitled to your belief and I am entitled to mine."

Agreed.

"By the way, I was an atheist when I was in college. I was arrogant enough to believe that humanity was the highest form of existence and the God was a silly superstition. Experience has provided me with the wisdom to see my error of false pride. I will pray that you and all your atheist comrades receive the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and come to the Light."

Oh good, the Anecdotal evidence logical fallacy (and about three otheres in this paragraph alone, but I'm getting tired with pointing them out).

First, cupcake, antedotes about you as a silly college student are irrelevent, and tremendously pointless. Partly because nothing of what you say can be verified, and partly because I've heard that same schtick from theists before. Though, I do wish that if you had such a need to insult me, you'd do it up front instead of couching it in unverifable nonsense.

Second, you don't know how old I am, but I'm glad that your arrogance takes precendence over your compulsion to evangelize.

Third, do not assume that I have no experiences that have made me question, or that I am uneducated about religion. I've been through the brainwashing nonsense and reject it.

Fourth, please spare me the embarassing "I'll pray for you" display. I don't understand why you think talking to yourself is going to change anything. However, I assure you when I wake up tomorrow, and next month, and next year still an atheist, we can chalk that up to more proof that god is either a) nonexistent of b) painfully incompetent.

Hope you find you way out of the rabbit hole and come to reason. (see how condesceding that is! for shame!)

The denial of God's existence is just as much an 'extraordinary claim' as the assertion of God's existence. Over three billion people believe in a monotheistic god. How many atheists are there in the world? Historically, God's existence was the prevalent belief. Thus, it is the denial of God's existence that is 'extraordinary'. Hence, it requires evidence of which you have none.
*******************************
It was a prevelant belief that the sun revolved around the earth along with the rest of the universe.
Did that make it correct?

Which God did our ancestors pre-Abraham (if he ever existed) believe in?

If I say that an invisible man lives under my bed, do you believe it, no matter how convinced I am?
Isn't it up to me to prove this man exists, or is it up to you to prove he doesn't exist?

If you want to say there is a God, it is up to you to prove it, not for me to disprove.

Atheism is a logical conclusion based on the analysis of evidence we have (scientific evidence that debunks a literal bible for instance) and total lack of evidence that anything supernatural.

Every Atheist I know is open minded. Show us evidence and our positions can change.

One more thing. There is evidence that MAN makes up Gods. All Gods can't be right. Is Thor the right God?, the Sun?, the Hebrew God, where Jesus was just another guy? The Christian God? The Muslim God, where Mohammed was a prophet?, Jim Jones God?, Joe Smith's God?, how about the Buddhist God?, or Hubbard's God? The Jehovah Witness God? The Zoroastrian God? There are over 3000 Gods.

It is logical that they all can't be right. And it is logical that everyone but one or all of them have their story right. Almost certainly, all of them are made up since there is no evidence that God has ever existed. But lots of evidence that man continues to make up Gods.

VV & BEAJ,

Your premise is that God does not exist and you demand proof of his existence. My premise is that God does exist and I ask for your proof that he does not. Demanding that I accept your premise is a sophist trick and weak argument. Neither of us can disprove the other's premise. Your anecdotal evidence is just as self-referential as mine.

I am NOT trying to get you to change your beliefs. I am simply pointing out that there is another perspective which is as internally consistent as yours. You are stating your belief as The Truth and disparaging people who disagree. How is that different from the 'fundamentalists' you seem to disdain?

Since I am free to practice my religious beliefs, I will choose to pray for you.

If my premise was the Tooth Fairy exists, and it was your premise you have no evidence that the Tooth Fairy exists, who is the onus on?

My contention is the Tooth Fairy, like any God you say you believe in is the same. There is no proof either exists. If one says the Tooth Fairy exists or God exists it is up to the person stating it, to prove it.

I say there is no evidence that God exists. I don't have to prove anything with that statement. You have to show me evidence to prove me wrong.

Don't worry, you can't change my mind, but I might change yours, or at least I'll get you thinking more rationally.

"Your premise is that God does not exist and you demand proof of his existence"

No, my premise by the way, is that no evidence for God exists just like no evidence for the Tooth Fairy exists. Why should I even consider the Tooth Fairy or God exists when I also believe both are man made myths?

i am an atheist too and i dont think there is a god or supreme being or any other kind of "higher power" whatsoever. however i will not try to limit or prohibit your right to believe what you want to believe so why would you try to do that to us? why cant people just live and let live and leave people the hell alone to do what they want to with their own beliefs. i am in no way gonna even entertain the notion of becoming a muslim let alone a radicalised one. to think that is just insanity at best. doesnt christain faith preach tolerance and "turn the other cheek" and all that? why cant you accept that there are people on this earth that may not belive what you do or maybe dont believe in anything at all? where is it written that every human HAS to believe in a higher power or supreme being or God of any kind at all.
kinda ironic that a religion that has a COMMANDMENT stating "Thou shalt not KILL" is responsible for a great many wars and millions of deaths over the centuries.

There are definitely a lot of misconceptions about atheism out there. Frankly, it's frightening to be in the moral minority. I dare not reveal my lack of "faith" in the workplace. It is the "ugly secret" that I keep tucked away at parties.

I believe that morality is derived from within. We are all born human beings with a sense of right and wrong, and a heartfelt appreciation for the idiosyncrasies of our fellow man.

Somewhere along the way, our vision of social harmony is distorted by aspects of human nature that we still have not come to fully understand.

And until we have reached that understanding, I don't feel there is any one system of beliefs that we should all prescribe to.

Do I think that man is the highest form of life? No, I do not. This is because I do not see life on scale of what is higher or lesser. If empathy were not a byproduct of equity, then what would it be?

Does my atheism make me weak? Is having a sense of morality without the aid of fearing an ultimate retribution a sign of weakness?

As one member of the CNN forum said it, "The atheist will stand out in a crowd."

Perhaps theists see themselves as "fitting in"?

Hello, Debbie.
I came across your video, and I must say that you're coming off as quite closed-minded, and childish!
My aunt says people like you, are the reason christianity is looked down upon by other religions, or this case (non-religions), and she is a devout christian.
Also, Atheism =/= Nihilism.
Atheists choose not to partake in religion, but they do not 'believe in nothing'.
And that certainly doesn't make them another religion! That's just ridiculous.
No one is asking you to change your religion, your country is all about freedom of choice!
The roots of Judeo-Christianity, lie in the middle east.
If you really want to claim a country was founded on christianity, you may want to move there.
But even then, the land already existed when Christianity was spread.
Are you from the 'Holy Land'?
No, I don't think so. If you have ancestors from there, then it's more plausible.
I think that faith is something that should be adhered to one's ancestry.
IN EVERY RELIGION there are those that believe they are the one true religion, and all others are false.
I believe that any religion is true for those who are a within it.
All of those people christ 'taught', in the bible, were previously a part of Judeism, or chose not to involve themselves with another religion.
Christianity isn't really a valid religion in my mind, the way it's constantly spread to people who already withhold their own religions, or none at all, as if they were in the wrong for not being christian.
Religion is something meant for the people who created it.
If you are a part of the founding nation of the religion, you are part of the religion.
Simple as that.
For example, catholicism is widespread in South America, but none of them are truely a part of it, unless they have judeo-christian ancestry.
Atheists are a part of their ancestry, and a simple choice cannot erase that.
In all, I believe in the right to choices, which you seem to be so against, and I will add that christianity today, is full of non-christian followers, who are bound to other religions, that lie in their blood.
They may choose to follow christianity, but it does not apply.
Atheists may choose not to acknowledge their true religions, but it is there, they cannot erase history.
So in the end, people should be allowed to make whatever choice they desire.
Don't act like a child, and tell them they are wrong, just because they shunned your religion, because in the end, the vast majority of christians did the same thing to their blood religion.
And judging by your last name, you come from germanic origins, and would share the same ancesteral religion/ideals as I would.
I am neither Christian, nor Atheist.
I am Pagan/Nationalist.
I do not live in the United States, nor do I really care for it.
I may also add, that I am 17 as of today.
If you or anyone wish to discuss this further with me, e-mail me at: foodlibraries@hotmail.com

Is this the futiure you see for America Debbie?

Aroma of Jesus [VIDEO]

Evangelical Pentagon video to be investigated.
Many are up in arms about the Christian Embassy's corporate promo Pentagon Christ-tacular (video right), including the The Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which is seeking an investigation.

my opinion is that mankind created God and religion as a way of explaining the unexplained at the time. then it evolved (theres that E word that religious people hate) into something more and got perverted to equate to morality, if youre not religious youre not moral. that is wrong to believe. everyone knwos killing is wrong, raping is wrong etc... they dont need a religion to tell them that they shouldnt kill. bible is one huge fairytale imo, a fictitious story, much like Grimm's fairy tales.

another thing ive heard stories about religious people being all pissed off about finding out scientists say such and such artifact is millions of years old or whatever. why do you get pissed off about that do you REALLY think the earth was created 12000 years ago or something and man came along 6000 years ago just out of nowhere poof we are here? i seriously doubt that is how it happened. science explains so much more with evidence and all. i see no evidence that backs up any religion or that there ever was a god that created everything. there may have beena Jesus Christ that did in fact walk this earth but he was not the son of any god and Mary did not get pregnant without having had sex thats just biologically impossible. its all a nice story and all but completely implausible imo.

oh another thing to add is that i saw a documentary a while back called Jesus Camp, scariest damn movie i have ever seen. they way these people treat their kids and brainwash them at such an early age. they had one woman homeschooling her kids cause god forbid their kids get exposed to other viewpoints and whatnot. they showed her asking them what they thought about evolution and the kids laughed and said that anyone believing that is a moron. oh but its ok to believe that some ficticious being jsut waved his hand and poof everything was here and works perfectly as it is. yeah that sounds so plausible.

John S, It's not so much I disbelieve science, or believe in the stories, or whether any of it is true, I think of religion as a facet of identity.
Which is why I dissapprove of chistianity so much.

CHUBBY:

Re-read my first line. You eventually will come to understand truth.
Whether one believes in a 'God' or not is irrelevant. Whether one finds truth is what is important. The new religion is Manmade global warming hysteria....SUV's on Mars and Venus?? Many individuals who do not believe in 'God' that I know, subscribe to the new religion.
Submission (read: Islam) is the problem facing all of us...not a blog/commentator.
However offended or "painful" are the thoughts/OPINION of another is your pain; "Pain is weakness leaving the body" "One cannot learn without pain" Some old ancient Greek fellow wrote that once...
This nation was founded in Judeo-Christian VALUES. Not "in" any particular religion. Just the VALUES which have allowed ALL of us to prosper to one extent or another. (Freedom is the catalyst, not FreeDumb.)

The village idiots who think the "West" is to blame, well, thanks for the Harlequins.
Demographics play an IMMENSE role in todays world...European births are going down the drain. Latin birth rates are 3:1 to white Caucasians, Middle Eastern Caucasians, in particular those of Submissive faith, have a birth rate approaching 6:1 to that of the traditional "Westerner." Don't "believe" me, I am not your 'God', or anyone else...just facts.

Ya know, I have yet to see HALF as much pissin' and moanin' about ol' the President of the Islamic Republic of Iran (Persian for Aryan.) comments on his desire to overtly destroy (Nuke) the entire "West"... hmmm. Who is a greater threat (real and credible mind you)...David Koresh or a Islamic Suicide-Bomber? What's a greater threat to the "West"...the ...under God...." or rising abortion rates? Hmmm. Being offended by anothers OPINION , or a Rosary?
There are two types of people...those who can't, and those who will not.
If you "can't" understand that is ok...keep reading books printed, for the vast majority, before '93, you'll catch on.
Or are you the "will not" persuasion? If that is the case, well YOU are contributing to the assault on the "West", and thus a contributor to your own "death".
I heard something the other day, and I find it simply incredible:
"Would you still hate what you see if you couldn't see what you hate?"

If so, start learning Arabic...af is one.

"Your premise is that God does not exist and you demand proof of his existence."

Where have I demanded any evidence? The only thing I have ever said is that there isn't any.

" My premise is that God does exist and I ask for your proof that he does not."

Which is a logical fallacy. Not proper debate. Not even worth all the time we've spent on it already. But I do need to note the hilarity of your claiming that others have offered "logical" arguments for god's existence, and yet have clearly no idea what constitutes a logical argument.

"Demanding that I accept your premise is a sophist trick and weak argument. "

Where did I demand you accept my premise? All I have done is point out the fatal errors in yours. I have not said you must agree with me. IN fact I have several times said exactly the opposite. Do try to remain honest.

Logical fallacies - which is all you have presented - are incorrect arguments. Therefore it is entirely correct to expose them for the nonsense that they are. That you are unable to accept that your arguments were so easily debunked it not my problem.

"Neither of us can disprove the other's premise."

Yours has been disproved you simply don't know enough about debate to know that. But rest assured, this does not mean that I'm saying your failed arguments prove god doesn't exist. Of course not. Your failed arguments do make a strong case for labeling faith are illogical. Though I'm sure everyone knows that already.

"Your anecdotal evidence is just as self-referential as mine."

What anecdotal evidence?

"I am NOT trying to get you to change your beliefs."

Neither am I trying to change yours. The only intention is to have theists understand why an atheist doesn't believe in their gods. I have no interest in changing your mind. To repeat myself: I don't care what nonsense you want to believe in, insofar as you do not attempt to legislate it.

" I am simply pointing out that there is another perspective which is as internally consistent as yours. "

No, you have demonstrated that the theistic perspective is logically flawed. At least as you have presented it. But, you still have ever right to believe in it.

"You are stating your belief as The Truth and disparaging people who disagree. How is that different from the 'fundamentalists' you seem to disdain?"

Please show me where this occurred. I have only ever said you are free to believe whatever you want, and made clear why I don't accept it. Additionally, I have pointed out the logical fallacies that you would have us believe make a logical case for believing in god. You are now floating into the logical fallacy known as argument from populus. Meaning, you use emotionalistic language to draw attention away from your failed argument and to demonize me for not falling for it. Very lame.

"Since I am free to practice my religious beliefs, I will choose to pray for you."

Waste your time however you like. I will continue to be an atheist. I've spent my time researching religion. I have made up my mind.

P.s. Since you have failed to provide me with proof that you are not an alien, then you must be one - according to your flawed logic. So, what planet do you come from?

Dear Debbie,

For your information, you began this post with an error--footage of you saying disparaging and crazy things about atheists is in fact available on the internet. Just thought you should know.

Also, try to remember how cause and effect works--Muslims move to Europe, and the Islamic population rises. Conclusion? Well, yours was that atheists were converting to Islam, and that's why the population of Muslims went up. The truth, however, is that more Muslims are moving to the area. If you want to know more about causation, feel free to email me and I'll explain it for you.

much love,
Dom

First of all I'm neither atheist or religious and I don't believe, or trust, in either way of thinking. I think both of them are counterintuitive for different reasons.

That's almost exactly what Thomas Jefferson and many of the other founding fathers were all about. Using quotes of theirs that were critical of religion, Christianity in particular, has actually nothing to do with their belief or disbelief in god; they rejected dogma, not outright belief. It doesn't even bolster atheists' assumptions that the U.S. isn't a Christian nation and/or founded on some principles and values that are inherent in Christianity, because the U.S. is supposed to be founded on the spirit of Christianity, if not the organized beliefs.

Also, if atheists want to be believed when they say they have morals/values and aren't nihilistic, etc, then some of you reeeaally need to stop telling Christians or anybody else to try to learn from someone like Dawkins. The man practically doesn't believe we have any humanity: thoughts, wishes, beliefs...

Ok Debbie,
Your comments seem very ignorant, one you have no logical proof that all atheists are going to be Muslim Extremists. This particular claim is an outrageous statement, Socrates is probably rolling in his grave right now. Now then, your rant that the U.S. is a Christian Nation due to percentages goes against everything the Founding Fathers ever preached. What You're suggesting is a Tyrrany of the Majority, Which James Madison preaches in Federalist #10 as one the most despicable things we could do. You're preaching this, and your words saying that atheists are or are going to be Muslim Extremists is only said to stir hate. Your arguments are both factually wrong and logically flawed. you create a non-sequitor when saying atheists are going to be Muslim Extremists. You should know why so many people sent you hate mail, you attacked atheists on national television, and you show your ignorance in everything you say. You're so much like Ann Coulter, You're both right wing tools and it's sickening.

While Debbie's views lean just a tad bit towards being narrow-minded, those same views are unfortunately echoed by an overwhelming majority of Americans.

And that is the reality that we atheists have to contend with in every aspect of our lives. An intuitive sense of morality just isn't a part of popular culture, and so I can't really blame Debbie for thinking the way that she does.

Instead, I can only hope that she and the rest of America will someday wake up and realize that the will to be a good person is not a fear/need for acceptance reflex.

Unlike religion...
When has atheism ever caused a war?
When has atheism ever supported genocide?
When has atheism ever led to an inquisition of any sort?
When has atheism ever supported the oppression of women?
When has atheism ever supported the murder of innocents?
When has atheism ever supported genocide?
When has atheism ever condoned slavery?
When has atheism ever supported racism?
When has atheism ever stifled individualism?
When has atheism ever led to the stagnation of society?
When has atheism ever tried to stifle the advancement of science?
When has atheism ever tried to stop the spread of knowledge?
When has atheism ever been condoned the sexual abuse of minors?
When has atheism ever supported book banning or burning?
When has atheism ever tried to dictate what you do in your bedroom?
When has atheism ever stopped the development of new medical breakthroughs that could save lives?

Why are there disproportionately fewer atheists in prison?
Why are there disproportionately more believers in prison?
Why has this always been the case?

When have atheists ever tried to place the words "In no God do we trust" on the dollar, or "under no God" in to our pledge, the way Christians injected their phrases during the Eisenhower administration?

When have atheists ever banned others from holding public office or acting as a witness in court? (such laws against atheists do exist in the US)

Why do theocracy and oppression always go hand in hand?

Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot were all ATHEISTS…and THE HEROES of your religion.

They were also GUILTY of all of the above.

People want meaning in their lives and ATHEISM has never been able to supply that.

Just what can your religion say to a nine-year girl dying of cancer? What hope can you give her? What solace?

None.

Yeah, that’s what I thought.

Wrong. You'll notice I never made any claim that all atheists were moral. Just because those men did not believe in god, does not make them representative of atheism, let alone heroes.

To make such a claim is dishonest and no more credible than if I were to claim that Hitler, Jim Jones, and Osama Bin Laden are your heroes. I do not say this because it would be an devisive insult that would not help anything, it's a shame you cannot adhere to a similar level of decency.

At any rate, none of the examples you claim have anything to do with atheism. Why? Because atheism itself has no such moral teachings, let alone anything to account for these men's atrocities. There morals came from additional independent ideologies which they adopted, from which their derrived their twisted sense of morality. In the case of these three it is Communism and collectivism.

It is common to hear evil men say "I did XXX for God," but you don't hear anyone saying "I did it because there is no God."

You are absolutely right that atheism is not going to provide meaning in people's lives. Why? Because atheism is not a religion or even an alternative. It simply means one doesn't believe in God. This conveys no more knowledge about a person than if I were to say of you, "you are not a plumber."

The fact that you don't believe in god isn't going to give meaning to your life, or tell you not to covet thy neighbors wife, or tell you to become an oppressive dictator.

The atheist chooses for himself a moral code and a meaning or purpose. There are a variety of ways in which atheists do this, but the important thing is that we think about our morals and come to these decisions on our own, instead of just following ambiguous orders written in some ancient text.

The result of having to actually think about morality and actually decide a personal moral code, means that most atheists are more conscious of their moral guidelines, and more likely to follow them, as the evidence clearly shows. This is why, despite atheism having no moral guidelines of its own, atheists on the whole are found to be moral people, and among the most productive members of our society.

Again, contrast this with religion, which offers moral guidelines which are commonly ambiguous, and often outright immoral.

As for your 9 year old girl, what does your religion tell her? "Yes, there is a God out there. Yes, he has the power to help you. But he will not. Sorry kid. By the way, please repent of your 9 years of sin and accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior so you don't go to hell." I'm sure you can talk your way around that for your own comfort, but that doesn't help her much. You can be the one to try to explain that to her. For my child, its not good enough.

Atheism, which is usually characterized by an adherence to reason, has a more positive effect. By freeing our minds from the shackles of religion, secular research has provided the world with new medical advancements, technologies, and discoveries which can actually help those in need. This too, religion fights at every step.

All I have to say is that this Debbie lady is by far, one of the ugliest bitches I have ever seen. On top of that, she is very stupid! In addition, since she insists on making generalizations about athiests,... I will say this: she really did lower the standards for being a Jew.. seriously, for a while there, I thought they were a smart bunch of people... :)

hey the canadien...we never hailed people like Stalin as our hero's I guess you tagged them that just for convenience, maybe a Straw man fallacy perhaps? Look at People l;ike Hitler who was a catholic, or maye perhaps you want to look at your crusades... Perhaps you don't realize the flaws in your own religion instead you make out others as heroes of one ideology to make it more conveniant, but your ignorance just prooves my point even more, furthermore you'll see more horrors done in the name of God than in the name of Atheism, maybe you'll want to look into the Spanish Inquisition? oh yeah but you'll overlook that because you can't defend such atrocities. Yoiur God caused more deaths than Atheism has so think before you speak you ignorant fool.

i really hate how people equate believing in god as being moral and upstanding and if you dont believe in god youre immoral. the whole superiority complex these people have is sickening as if theyre better than people who dont believe in their god. while christains are at it why not just believe that white people are the superior race as well and men are better than women. oh wait the bible pretty much says that already doesnt it?

as for the child dying of cancer situation, there is nothing that god can do about that and believing god can help that poor girl is giving her and the parents false hope. when she dies whos fault is it then? the devils? well since god is supposed to be stronger than the devil why would he LET this poor girl die of cancer and not step in and save her? you rationalize it by saying that god had a plan for her and it was god's will, well what kind of god would take a 9yr old girl off this planet out of the blue like that? doesnt seem like a very merciful god does it.

i think people like to believe in some higher power cause then it absolves them of responsibility for their own lives, they can be comfortable in blaming something else other than themselves. if something goes good well then it was all due to god and if something goes bad well god had a plan or maybe the devil caused it. which i refer back to the whole god is supposedly stronger than the devil pont so therefor god dropped the ball and let bad things happen.

whos fault was Katrina? god, devil, global warming? or could it just be due to some natural cycle the earth is in.

sort of off topic, how arrogant are we to believe that we can cause all this damage to the earth over just the last few decades? the earth has cycles that it goes through and maybe these few degrees of climate change over the last few years is gearing up for another phase in its evolution (oh no the dreaded E word).

Quote:
"Just what can your religion say to a nine-year girl dying of cancer? What hope can you give her? What solace?"

I'm glad that you admit that your religion is but a delusional attempt to give meaning where there is none.

What do you say to that girl? 'Well, kid, I guess Jeebus was too busy sitting on His almighty thumb to heal you or keep you from dying...'

Your "meaning of life" is: 'we're all ants on god's ant farm'. Hurray!

In the end, we all decide our own values, and from that, our own meaning. You may have decided yours is to follow this or that conception of god. Mine is to live well and leave the world a little better. Perhaps both of us end up DOING the same thing, just MOTIVATED by different "purposes".

The Spanish Inquisition numbers…don’t compare with the 20+ million Stalin slaughtered under his religion of Atheism…c’mon guy…be serious!

And what if God lets millions die HORRIBLY but rewards them forever, just beyond the “corridor of death”? Really, what permanent harm has actually been done? None.

Sdanielmorgan…thanks for your responding post, BUT according to your own blog you debunk Christianity.

I haven’t seen any debunking…only a lot of anger, frustration and confusion.

When you dialogue about religion especially Christianity…well, you are WAY OUT of your league, friend!

Please just stick to chemistry…stick to something you know about–

IF you want to refute Jesus, and the claims of Jesus, and the work of Jesus, your chemistry knowledge is of no use!

You haven’t really even looked at the evidence supporting Jesus.

Would you even know where to start?

Jesus Himself, the Apostles and the Church have detailed very intricate, and complex arguments, supporting all His assertions and claims and thus refuting all objections.

JESUS is either a LIAR or A LUNATIC or THE LORD. It’s that easy!

And you don’t understand Sacred Scripture AT ALL…you don’t even have a clue! Because that is the only arena you can refute from!

Besides, how can you refute something you only possess a kindergarten level knowledge of?

You can run around, wringing your hands, calling down the rabid “dogs” of the ACLU on misspelled Ten Commandment monuments found in the public arena…but what have you accomplished, really?

What you REALLY should be asking yourself is: why does the sight of anything religious seem to engender such a harsh response from me?

“In the end, we all decide our own values, and from that, our own meaning.”

Wow…do I disagree with you here!

That statement isn’t even logical. There is right and wrong. Always. Is a murderer’s opinion and purpose as valid as mine, a law-abiding citizen?

So there you have it…you see the simpler moral issues but can’t comprehend the value of the higher ones, the Church’s stance against abortion, or euthanasia or artificial contraception etc. Try instead to understand the Church’s teaching on these issues and so many others and attempt to learn how even this mildly imposed morality is a form of divine communication and a revelation of God’s very being.

As a man of science, being open-minded and not pre-deciding is probably a good thing.

Now if I take a cup of sugar and put it in my hands…alongside a cup of potassium nitrate, and apply a flame to the compound…not a good idea right? Kind of foolhardy. That’s the truth right?

So if you live your life without acknowledging God, but then it turns out there really is a God, wouldn’t that also kind of foolish?

How would you cover off that default?

What would happen if you repeatedly ignored the requests and expectations of your boss?

You said, “You may have decided yours is to follow this or that conception of god. Mine is to live well and leave the world a little better. Perhaps both of us end up DOING the same thing, just MOTIVATED by different "purposes".”

I don’t think we’ll both end up doing the same thing…your aims are purely at a humanistic level. They serve only Man. Mine are also at a spiritual level.

YOU CAN do good works, yes…but they aren’t part of the Redemption.

That’s how Mother Teresa once put it so well.

HEY, you could always become a MUSLIM…

That's the other perfectly FALSE religion…if you don't want to think for yourself~

Debbie believes atheists are attacking Christianity. No - they are trying to defend themselves against it! The only reason I – as an atheist – would want to attack Christianity is because “the best defense is to mount an attack on the thing that is threatening you. I have come to the conclusion that it is a terrible affliction and a genuine human tragedy that one should believe in an entity such as god. I think this because - while in principle a nonsensical and hence harmless or innocent belief – like the belief in the tooth fairy - it is at the same time the sickly, smelly, rotten core of centuries of savagery and senseless slaughter of millions of people in the name of such beliefs - and primarily in the competition between such beliefs. Read up on human history, and this shall be revealed: “Religion is the Scourge of Mankind�. It is our greatest failure as a species - the inability to think rationally for the greater good. Of course, folks will tell you that religion is typically used as an excuse to dominate, rule or otherwise exploit people. When the catholic church established the Inquisition in 1229, it was to wipe out the Cathar movement in southern France - the Languedoc region - where the movement had taken hold in opposition to the hitherto dominant roman catholic religion. The pope wouldn’t put up with the competition so he put an end to it. Earlier, he had mounted a crusade against the Cathars, and under leadership of the Abbot of Citeaux the town of Béziers was taken on 22 July 1209 and all its inhabitants were killed - more than 20,000 people - every man, woman and child. That this would have included many roman catholic adherents also didn’t seem to matter: Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eis. - “Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own�.

This is only one small example of the crimes committed against humanity in the name of “eternal salvation�. “Eternal damnation� is more like it. One might claim that this kind of action has nothing to do with the religious beliefs themselves - and that they are misused when wielded as weapons of murder and destruction. No - it is precisely the unsubstantiated and irrational nature of these beliefs that allows them to be used in this manner. When you think you have eternity and creation on your side - all your actions are justified! Until we shake off the dominance of these dangerous beliefs, our species will continue to be murdered for them!

Canadien, what about Hitler? you obviously avoided discussing him, i guess for convenience sake, you are missing the whole point. You said Stalin was a hero of atheism, however, you fail to realize noone calls him a hero, don't create a straw man fallacy, which is taking my argument changing to easily blow it down, it's a logical fallacy. Anyway, you can't claim Stalin was a hero of atheism, in fact the idea of Leninist communism was to make communism a religion. Anyway, if you want to create that fallacy then by your logic Hitler was your epitome of a hero for christianity. This being based on YOUR logic. I don't say Hitler was a hero for christianity cause it's not true, furthermore Stalin and Tao are not called heros by Atheists you dub them that out of your ignorance. You should realize every Militant Atheist is only like that because Christianity attacked them so it was a response to that. We aren't a people who are going to be your scapegoats sitting down. We are acting in self-defense. So think before you speak and if you ever want to get in a real debate stop creating straw mans get some guts and debate for real.

"That statement isn’t even logical. There is right and wrong. Always. Is a murderer’s opinion and purpose as valid as mine, a law-abiding citizen?"

Sorry, you misunderstood me. You and I agree that there is right and wrong and these are absolute. Nobody chooses what is good. I was saying that people choose their own moral GUIDELINES to follow in life. These guidelines may be good or bad.

I went on to say that religion offers many guidelines that are ambigious, contradictory, and outright immoral. Atheists however, have always had to consciously think about morality and discover these moral absolutes for themselves, and thus they are consistently shown follow them more.

Was that the only part of contention you had with My posts? It's the only part you addressed. In that case I would ask that you now concede that atheism does not imply immorality, and atheists should not be treated as such.

"Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds." - Jesus of Nazareth
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." - Jesus of Nazareth

Publius……THERE’S BEEN a lot of famous atheists…Hitler included, and they’ve been utterly ruthless, ignoring the God-given and inherent dignity of man.

HITLER may not be your hero, but he CERTAINLY IS your brother in belief nevertheless. You both deny the existence of God.

ALL NAZIS were excommunicated by the German bishops in 1930.

CATHOLICS were FORBIDDEN from voting for the Nazi party in the 1932 election. ‘Course there were no elections after that. All the Lefties, atheists and other Christians must then have voted him in.

CHRISTIANITY isn’t attacking anybody…but we were called to expand the Kingdom. The Gospel directive is clear…to pass over those who “stop up their ears”.

I suggest you keep acting in self-defense. The MUSLIMS are coming…and they won’t have the tolerance the Judeo-Christian societies have had for you.

Don’t bore me with “failed” politicians who “back” ATHEISM.

SHOW me from the Bible where Jesus has erred.

C’mon, I’m waiting!

JESUS is either a LIAR or a LUNATIC or THE LORD.

Obviously, you don’t believe He is The Lord. So PROVE the other two.

Canadien, excommunication our not, Hitler believed in creation and he believed Jesus was the saviour. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Atheists are 8-15% of the US population, yet Atheists only represent 1% of the prison population.

Who is more moral and ethical?

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in lonliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against Jewish poison... as a Christian I have also a duty to my people." - Adolph Hitler April 12, 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922 - August 1939. Vol 1 of 2, pp. 19-20. Oxford University Press 1942).

There in no contemporary evidence Jesus ever Existed, most likely he was an invention of Paul

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/m_m_mangasarian/truth_about_jesus.htm l

http://www.luigicascioli.it/home_eng.php

http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/historical_jesus.htm

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

http://www.thegodmovie.com/

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

Bacon addressed your other failed claims sufficiently.

In regard to your desparate cry that "JESUS is either a LIAR or a LUNATIC or THE LORD."
You are placing yourself into a box of your own presumptions and ignorance.

There are other many alternative ways to view Jesus. For instance...

- Many early Christians believed that Jesus was not God, but infused with his spirit at baptism.
- Other early Christians viewed Jesus as the savior from the material world who opposed the evil God of the old Testament.
- Muslims belive Jesus was a prophet of God.
- Many Buddhists believe Jesus was a Bodhisattva, an enlightened one who dedicated his life to helping his fellow men to also achieve enlightenment.
- Many Hindus believe Jesus was a yogi or guru.
- Other Hindus believe he was the reincarnation of Elisha (from the Bible)
- The Baha'i Faith views Jesus as a prophet.
- Many Deists and Atheists view Jesus as a significant moral teacher and philosopher, who's message was corrupted and who was later elevated to Godlike status. This would include Thomas Jefferson, a Deist who actually wrote the "Jefferson Bible," which includes only the teachings of Jesus, without the supernatural elements.

It is quite apparent that any feedback you received on your false portrayal of atheists has had any effect on your thinking after viewing your site. I won't even lower myself to respond to the irrational comments made there. This matters little in the scheme of things though.
It has, however, brought the issue to light. Well done Debbie!! I suppose it may come as a surprise to you, given your obvious disdain for atheists, that within Christianity and your OWN religious ranks are those that are 'closet atheists.' Those who 'shut up' and allow themselves to be intimidated by the perceived threat of shunning and worse by family members, close friends, and people like yourself. The ones that go through the motions to avoid the very attitude you display. It will be interesting to see how many 'come out' now along with the rest of us. As STRONG (contrary to your claim) atheists, rather than taking offense to your bigotry we should perhaps be thanking you for revealing your character and those of your mindset through the provision of freedom of speech and for providing the impetus for others to step forward. By all means be "entertained and amused." It does little other than cement our perception of you as misinformed and bigoted. If we didn't think you were that before your response to angered atheists on your site, well now.......
I quite expect and it will come as no surprise that you may not wish to post this on your site so you can claim 'hate mail' but following is my response to CNN:

I took a night to 'sleep it off' after viewing the 'panel' discussion on discrimination against atheists before writing. I'm still working on it. What an outrageous display of intellectual dishonesty! Did CNN even consider the outcome of not having one atheist on board to counter the misinformation being tossed around? I have to think they must have, since no one in this line of work can really be so mindless. Or can they? This leads me to some assumptions regarding their bias against atheism. Hopefully they have some good damage control tactics in place to salvage any credibility they may have had with those who believe in freedom of speech. The only redeeming quality I find is Mr. Smith's stand for this right, albeit, he does add to the misinformation presented in the discussion. At least that can be used to their credit. The former, not a chance.
Even the title on the background screen alone is just wrong. "Why do atheists inspire such hatred?" This is akin to saying abused wives like being hurt and bring it on themselves. Do they mean atheists like to be discriminated against, and therefore, cause their own discrimination? That they like being disowned by even family members and close friends simply because they cannot believe what they find to be unbelievable. Should atheists really be forced to keep their core identities to themselves in order to avoid societal hatred? Were the panelists at all concerned in the least for the family portrayed in the documentary? Is this a mark of their theist morality? Or do they feel they deserve to be thought of as sub human? This is the kind of thinking that has led to countless abuses of human dignity throughout history.
So Ms. Hunter is a noted journalist and educated woman. I find it difficult to believe now, that she is sincere in her views on tolerance. She emphatically states that this is "one nation made up of different people with different views from different places" as quoted from her own article appearing in the New York Daily News originally published on July 30, 2004. She goes on to say "forcing people to choose sides is ugly. Worse, urging people to hate those on the other side will be our undoing as a nation. Only through understanding those who hold different views will we get stronger" (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/khunter/). I'm guessing it's appropriate now to say she "needs to shut up?"
These comments are notable since they demonstrate hypocrisy at it's worst. It is apparent neither Ms. Hunter nor Ms. Schlussel have a clue what atheism is about by making such comments such as "what does an atheist believe in? Nothing right?," let alone try to understand it. Do some research, brush up on cultural diversity, or at the least speak to an atheist before you go informing others of what you think atheists believe or don't believe. Many of us are former Christians. How do you think we got to be atheists? Just on a whim? No, it was through a purposeful and intentional, sometimes painful, process of looking honestly and intellectually at what and why we believed as we did. We don't live in a vacuum of nothingness. We all have beliefs in many things, just not god beliefs.
Speaking of 'inspiring hatred' as the aforementioned title draws attention to........ How ironic that Ms Hunter, herself, along with Ms. Schlussel who agrees that we should 'shut up' have now fanned the flames of misunderstanding and growing tensions between theists and atheists. Perhaps Ms. Hunter and Ms. Schussel might like to work alongside with atheists in designing a line of "Hallmark cards for atheists" as an approach to bridging the gap they, themselves, along with CNN, have widened now. What a step backward in the progress of humanity and basic human rights.
Do NOT tell us to shut up.....just don't!!! We will be even more vocal. Christians have had their say for centuries now. It's simply too bad [for those who don't want to hear] that many of us will no longer be silenced.

Oh, and what is with the non sequitor of when your appearance was? Nice try to deflect the real issue here. How much will the timing of when someone viewed your performance effect the message you sent to the entire nation?

Well said, Becca.

I would only add that it is utter laughable the way the CNN panel dismissed the very notion of discrimination against atheists. They actually even go so forward as to claim that we are on the attack and that they are the one's being persecuted (yet oddly, in the same breath they say this is a Christian nation).

As further evidence of the discrimination against atheists, and to lend support to Becca's claim about how many atheists are forced to hide their views, I call attention to the fact that many states have laws against atheism.

This is so much larger than just atheists needing to "just leave Christians alone" and "shut up." No, we will not shut up. This is blatant discrimination and it is wrong.

Here are some current state laws forbidding atheists and sometimes all non-Christians from such things as serving in a public office, becoming a notary public, or even acting as a witness in court.

Arkansas State Constitution, Article 19 Section 1
"No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court."

Maryland Declaration of Rights, Article 36
"That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore, no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate, on account of his religious persuasion, or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent, or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain, any place of worship, or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God, and that under His dispensation such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefore either in this world or in the world to come."

Massachusetts State Constitution, Article 3
"Any every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law: and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law."

Mississippi State Constitution, Article 14, Section 265
"No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state."

North Carolina State Constitution, Article 6 Section 8
"Disqualifications of office. The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God."

Pennsylvania State Constitution, Article 1 Section 4
"No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth."

South Carolina State Constitution, Article 4 Section 2, also Section 8
"No person shall be eligible to the office of Governor who denies the existence of the Supreme Being; ..."

Tennessee State Constitution, Article 9 Section 2
"No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."

Texas State Constitution, Article 1 Section 4
"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."

One strength of the Communist system ... is that it has some of the characteristics of a religion and inspires the emotions of a religion. (Albert Einstein,

Perhaps, some of the above posters should use, "...a God..." or use quotations around the word God, or some other form of identification. Why? In not doing so they are unconsciously affirming the very existence of a God. Elementary I'll admit, however a corrupted lexicon corrupts a society.
If discrimination was NOT legal, there wouldn't be a single grocery store, multiple automobile manufacturers, radio stations, blogs, clothing stores et al etc. Freedom to choose, not FreeDumb to lose.

Why do idiots thinks Atheists are communist. Because Stalin was a communist? I vote Progressive Conservative in Canada, it is sort of equal to Republican in the USA.

From Sam Harris:

2) Atheism is responsible for the greatest crimes in human history.

People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

3) Atheism is dogmatic.

Jews, Christians and Muslims claim that their scriptures are so prescient of humanity’s needs that they could only have been written under the direction of an omniscient deity. An atheist is simply a person who has considered this claim, read the books and found the claim to be ridiculous. One doesn’t have to take anything on faith, or be otherwise dogmatic, to reject unjustified religious beliefs. As the historian Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71) once said: “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

the way i see it Christians are more on the road to becoming Muslim. Islam saya that ones who do not believe in their religion are infidels and must be done away with. granted Islam seems to take it a bit further than just telling those that dont believe in God to "shut up" but its the same sort of attitude towards people that dont believe.

– “I went on to say that religion offers many guidelines that are ambiguous, contradictory, and outright immoral.”

I’M A CATHOLIC, not a member of one of the thousand competing denominations…there is no ambiguity in our faith. DEFINITELY nothing contradictory and as for IMMORAL only Catholicism offers a true and noble morality…although some others come close~

–“Atheism, which is usually characterized by an adherence to reason, has a more positive effect. By freeing our minds from the shackles of religion, secular research has provided the world with new medical advancements, technologies, and discoveries which can actually help those in need. This too, religion fights at every step.”

YOU FORGOT “and we will boldly go where no man has gone before!”

The PROBLEM with atheists is they can’t handle the Bible. They can’t explain it; they can’t refute it…they can only get mad at it!

When you read Scripture there are about 30 things going on at once BUT because you’ve become so imbedded with that simplistic TV version of evangelism, your minds, now insipid, believe Pastor D. Zastor’s pathetic, superficial, and incomplete interpretation of the Bible is the complete picture.

Nope.

MAYBE you can’t really be blamed when you turn away in horror.

BACON EATER…strive for accuracy…you’re just an atheist…you threw your “Jewishness” away a long time ago, so remove Jew from your handle~

Your PROOF links were garbage. Don’t insult my intelligence with desperate pages that are neither accurate, nor compelling. Are you sure you weren’t once an associate of Jack Chick?

–“Many early Christians believed that Jesus was not God, but infused with his spirit at baptism.
–“Other early Christians viewed Jesus as the savior from the material world who opposed the evil God of the old Testament.”

Christians should read heretics or schismatics.

I DON”T CARE about what Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or other irregular religions including atheists believe about Jesus.

WHAT DID Jesus say about Himself?

When encountering his fellow Jews, JESUS told them, “Truly, truly (this formulation is the taking of an oath to the truth), I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.” (John 8:58)

When Moses met God at the “burning” bush (Exodus 3:13) he inquired what God’s name was. God responded, “I am who I am.”

Tell the sons of Israel, “I AM has sent you.” (Exodus 3:14)

For those who are not in need of the services of a DUMBULANCE, the conclusion is clear. Jesus told the crowds indirectly that He is God. Not a philosopher, moral teacher, yogi, guru, only a prophet, or even a reincarnation.

'nuff said.

thing that gets me is whenever you ask a christian why anything is or what anything is or who anyone is or whatever they just respond with "the bibles tells us so". thats the only source and not really a real answer btw. scientific community has several sources to corroborate answers. therefore things are more provable.

cops ask for corraborating stories to support alibis for murder suspects. they dont just take the accused's word for it.

bible was written by man. it was not written by god.

oh how i would love to go back some 2000 years to see what really happened and prove once and for all that religion is all a crock of crap.

A) while you say that you recieved hate mails, i'm willing to bet most of them merely disagreed with you, but its hard to say for certain without seeing them. Its all too easy to put your biased spin on someone no one else will ever see.

B) your blog sucks. I don't mean content (which i disagree with heartily) but visually. Its almost impossible to read. I can see you don't employ anyone to your website (if you do, fire them. and hire someone who knows how to use photoshop to fix up your photos) but seriously! 15 minutes with a fee online page maker would this at least visually decent. It looks like the pages from the first days of the internet. Back when it was a dump truck, and not tubes yet

On a side note I love how conservatives decry liberals imposing their values (usually made up, like the war on Christmas)but then demand everyone follow their beliefs. My favorite part is "liberals/atheists (they often can't tell the difference) want to teach children about atheism! we have to force the kids to learn about Jesus (if they want to or not) so they won't be fooled!"

I wonder how much ad revenue this article has made for Debbie. I'm willing to bet she has had record traffic on this site since she made her harsh statements regarding atheists. This proves that bigotry can be profitable.

we're not attacking you. just trying to help you not be so ignorant towards atheists. and im going to have to 'go with god' on this one: here. thanks for being blonde.

and if that doesnt link: www.blogofthegods.com/2007/02/08/debbie-schlussel-inspires-new-commandment-from-god/#more-35

"I’M A CATHOLIC, not a member of one of the thousand competing denominations…there is no ambiguity in our faith. DEFINITELY nothing contradictory and as for IMMORAL only Catholicism offers a true and noble morality…although some others come close~"

I have no doubt that you sincelerly believe this. Remember though, that there are hundereds of other Christian denominations. There are thousands of other religions of the world. For each of these there have been people who would make the exact same assertion.

For each of those other religions and denominations you and I would stand together and agree wholeheartedly that they are wrong. However, for one mythology of the thousands, you say "hang on, wait a minute.. This one is right." Unfortunately, neither you nor they have anything to prove which religion is superior beyond your personal testimony.

Why shouldn't a person seeking faith choose one of those other religions, perhaps one with a God who is less capricious? I encourage you to read the Bible, as I have. It is rife with genocide, slavery, oppression of women, and other atrocities at the hand of a deity who is quite often childlike, spiteful, and unjust.

Of the few decent moral guidelines to be found, most are vague or are contradicted at other places in the Bible.

Certainly it would be better to just find or invent another religion that had good clear moral guidelines, like "Slavery is bad" and "Don't rape women," and none of those silly pointless rules commonly found in religious texts.

Or maybe, just maybe.. We don't need any of that quaint religion stuff at all. Well, perhaps some still do, and that's fine, just don't force it upon those who've grown beyond this need.

"YOU FORGOT 'and we will boldly go where no man has gone before!'"

This isn't a legitimate point, but it did make me smile, so you get bonus points for that. :)

Judging by your response to the various views of Jesus, you misunderstood my point. Of course I don't expect you to care or agree with how other people view Jesus, I was only reminding you that there are other ways to view him besides just "a LIAR or a LUNATIC or THE LORD."

"…they can only get mad at [the Bible]."

I can't speak for everyone, but I've never gotten angry at my Bible, any more than I would get angry at Aesop's Fables, Plato's Republic, or the Hindu Vedas. In fact, I rather enjoy parts of it, but I don't feel compelled to elevate it (or these other books) to some divine status. What I certainly don't like is being treated unfairly because of this.

Cheers

Look at famous atheists and what happened to them? You mean Marie Curie, Sigmund Freud, James Watson, Francis Crick, Richard Feynman, Richard Dawkins, Woody Allen, Margaret Sanger, Douglas Adams, Terry Pratchett, Primo Levi, Andrew Carnegie, George Carlin, Kurt Vonnegut, and Bertrand Russel? Yeah, Islamofascists, all of them. And I'm sure Adam Gadahn would have turned out entirely different raised by religious parents. I mean, after all, Hilter was raised by Catholics and Jeffery Dahmer grew up in a Christian fundamentalist family, and we all know how well they turned out. Oh, wait...

"I may not like what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
why cant a similar thing be said about religion in this country?.....
"I may not like what you believe, but I'll defend to the death your right to believe it."

that would be too accepting of others i guess and all religions cant be THAT accepting i guess. because all of them are brainwashed to believe that THEY are the true believers and what they believe is THE ONLY REAL TRUTH. but i ask anyone of any religion if all say that how can they all be true? its complete garbage to think that.

yeah Canadien,

Hitler was Catholic in many conversations (private ones where he wouldn't have to cover his ass) he has said and i quote "I always was and always will be a catholic" so he is actually a brother of your faith. So learn your history. He has many other accounts that were brought to light, that he has insisted that he was actually catholic. Atheists were targeted by Hitler too. Which means he obviously didn't care. I know you'll say sio were christians, but it was only the christians that spoke out against him. With that said, I don't have a problem with all christians, i have a problem with the christians that actually try to force me into converting, and treat me like hell when i decline their offer. where's jesus's sayings when they do that? i don't think it is if peopole don't follow torture them to death. sol don't lecture me, the main problem is when people like you who don't know what they're talking about start a debate, and refuse to admit when they're obviosly wrong. My other problem is how a whole population of people are generalized like what Debbie said in her blog. She doesn't take into account that many Muslims moved to Europe, and she assumes(but states it like it was a fact) that all Atheists were becoming Muslim extremists. I am sorry no one should be generalized like she did to us. I don't care what race, belief, etc.. no one deserves to be generalized at all it feeds hate and ignorance.

Point well made, publius. I have no problem with christians supporting their faith. But, support of Debbie's comments on CNN amounts to the perpetuation of ignorance and hatred, no question about it.

And another broad misconception that her views fed into was the belief that the recent violence in europe had anything to do with the muslim religion. Those riots were born out of the same poverty and social oppression that led to the LA riots.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH is apostolic and an AUTHORITATIVE Church.

While you may LAY CLAIM to being Catholic, if the Pope, or the local Conference of (German) bishops EXCOMMUNICATES you…you are OFFICIALLY outside of the Church!

Your sins are retained…by you!

The German Conference excommunicated all Nazis in 1930, and that includes Hitler!

While Hitler would never lose the charism baptism bestows, his horrific orchestration of needless war, murder and Jewish genocide ALSO IMMEDIATELY INSURED his EXCOMMUNICATION, “ipso facto”. In other words his excommunication was automatic, incurred by his action(s) and doesn’t EVEN NEED official Church declaration. A modern, and lesser scenario occurs sometimes when a Catholic woman, husband, or doctor, PARTICIPATE in an abortion. Murdering the unborn automatically EXCOMMUNICATES you.

Because Jesus granted the “keys” to Peter and transmitted the power to loose or bind sin for all, and for all time, if the Church declares your excommunication officially, or you declare it, by your actions (ipso facto) then you are no longer a Catholic, regardless of your claim otherwise!

Debbie said THREE THINGS on CNN:

FREEDOM OF RELIGION doesn’t mean freedom FROM religion.

The Real Discrimination is ATHEISTS against Americans who are religious.

They (atheists) are the ones who are intolerant against Christians.

ALL 3 statements are 100% accurate.

Additionally, ATHEISTS…that's how all Catholics and other Christians I know PERCEIVE YOU and your anti-Christian lobbying, lawsuits, whatever.

So EVERYTIME you are SCANDALIZED by a Christmas tree or THUNDERSTRUCK by a Merry Christmas sign in a public arena CHRISTIANS see you! AS HOSTILE!! And AS BIGOTS!!!

FYI.

So YOUR ACTIONS incur any hostility you encounter ~

I meant to say YOUR RECTIONARY, INTOLERANT ACTIONS incur any hostility you encounter ~

GOON,

I'd like to ask you if your name is Goon Koch to write me your opinion concerning religion by e-mail. So we can discuss thorughly! Thanks a lot!

The Canadien said:
"The Spanish Inquisition numbers...don't compare with the 20+ million Stalin slaughtered under his religion of Atheism...c'mon guy...be serious!"

This was in response to someone else. However, I must point out that atheism itself is responsible for zero murders. The reason Stalin murdered people wasn't the "religion of Atheism" [one of the dumbest oxymorons I've ever read], but the system of Communism! People like Stalin and Pol Pot are just as deluded as Christians -- they strive to use force to bring about a utopia just as Christians do.

The Canadien said:
"And what if God lets millions die HORRIBLY but rewards them forever, just beyond the "corridor of death"? Really, what permanent harm has actually been done? None."

In that case, if God forgives Stalin, after millions die horribly, what justice has been done? None.

The Canadien said:
"Sdanielmorgan...thanks for your responding post, BUT according to your own blog you debunk Christianity."

Um, so? Did you mean to finish this clause with some "THEREFORE" conclusion?

The Canadien said:
"I haven't seen any debunking...only a lot of anger, frustration and confusion."

Care to be specific?

The Canadien said:
"When you dialogue about religion especially Christianity...well, you are WAY OUT of your league, friend!"

Again, I'd love some specific point where I stepped "out of my league", qualification-wise or whatever...And as for you? Are you an M.Div.? Th.M.? Ph.D.? No, I didn't think so.

The Canadien said:
"Please just stick to chemistry...stick to something you know about--"

And what about you? What is your degree in? Are people only allowed to comment in the area of their specialty, and not outside it? Well then, I suppose Peter should've only pontificated on fishing, and Jeebus on carpentry...

The Canadien said:
"IF you want to refute Jesus, and the claims of Jesus, and the work of Jesus, your chemistry knowledge is of no use!"

Um, I never said I used chemistry to do any of those things. You're a dolt.

The Canadien said:
"You haven't really even looked at the evidence supporting Jesus."

And you conclude this based on what? And you know this...how...again...?

The Canadien said:
"Would you even know where to start?"

Depends on what I was trying to do, doesn't it? Insofar as the general debunking of Christian claims goes, philosophical technique is about all I need to employ -- basic premises and deductive conclusions.

The Canadien said:
"Jesus Himself, the Apostles and the Church have detailed very intricate, and complex arguments, supporting all His assertions and claims and thus refuting all objections."

That's interesting. I was under the impression that the authors of the gospels were not the Apostles, and that Jesus never wrote a book. It's also interesting that you don't specify any particular objection.

The Canadien said:
"JESUS is either a LIAR or A LUNATIC or THE LORD. It's that easy!"

Perhaps to a mentally-disabled person it's that easy. To a person with a modicum of intelligence, there's a fourth option which is even more likely than all those: that the people who followed him had an oral tradition about what he said and who he was that was distorted over time and mishmashed with other pagan mythologies and then eventually written down (30-40 years later). And so it's impossible to say what Jesus *really said* and what his followers *really believed*.

The Canadien said:
"And you don't understand Sacred Scripture AT ALL...you don't even have a clue! Because that is the only arena you can refute from!"

? What is the "only arena you can refute from"? What don't I understand? Why don't I have a clue? Do you just love to spew rhetoric without support? You must be a preacher!!!!

All you do is hurl insult after insult. You sound like the Pharisees. Those guys were the *only* people that Jesus ever threatened with hellfire. Go find me an exception, you pompous ass, since I don't now crap about the Bible.

The Canadien said:
"Besides, how can you refute something you only possess a kindergarten level knowledge of?"

I'd love to know how you can assess my own knowledge of Scripture, you pompous ass. Besides, didn't you own Jesus say that you had to have the mind of a child to enter into God's kingdom, you worthless asshole?

The Canadien said:
"You can run around, wringing your hands, calling down the rabid "dogs" of the ACLU on misspelled Ten Commandment monuments found in the public arena...but what have you accomplished, really?"

Preventing theocratic imbeciles from ruining our secular government and using it as a weapon to advance their religious doctrines.

The Canadien said:
"What you REALLY should be asking yourself is: why does the sight of anything religious seem to engender such a harsh response from me?"

It doesn't. I drive by crosses and churches every day, and don't break a sweat. It's only when I encounter foaming-mouth fundies with no brains and lots of presumptions that I get angry.

The Canadien said:
"sdanielmorgan said:'In the end, we all decide our own values, and from that, our own meaning.'
Wow...do I disagree with you here!"

Oh, so you don't choose whether or not to believe? To follow? To obey?

The Canadien said:
"That statement isn't even logical. There is right and wrong. Always. Is a murderer's opinion and purpose as valid as mine, a law-abiding citizen?"

You must have the reading comprehension level of my St. Bernards. I never said all values, or opinions, or purposes, are equally valid, you retard. I said we all choose our values. There's quite a difference there.

The Canadien said:
"So there you have it...you see the simpler moral issues but can't comprehend the value of the higher ones, the Church's stance against abortion, or euthanasia or artificial contraception etc. Try instead to understand the Church's teaching on these issues and so many others and attempt to learn how even this mildly imposed morality is a form of divine communication and a revelation of God's very being."

Um, no. The church has a belief based on old mythical books written by people, just like you and me. No one has divine communication. Sorry. People that have "divine communication" are called lunatics and we lock them up for all of our safety.

The Canadien said:
"As a man of science, being open-minded and not pre-deciding is probably a good thing."

Depends on what you mean. Being *so* open-minded that you don't put natural constraints on your experiments, or use theoretical modeling, would mean that science would end. I could explain the same observation using various theories -- supernatural ones involving magic fairies, for example, or natural laws and processes. If I don't "pre-decide", or presuppose, that there is a natural explanation for some data, then I won't have made any contribution to science by determining what that explanation is.

Now if I take a cup of sugar and put it in my hands...alongside a cup of potassium nitrate, and apply a flame to the compound...not a good idea right? Kind of foolhardy. That's the truth right?

The Canadien said:
"So if you live your life without acknowledging God, but then it turns out there really is a God, wouldn't that also kind of foolish?"

Pascal's wager warmed over. What if you live your life acknowledging the WRONG gods?? Perhaps you'll be punished more for worshipping a false god than I will be for not believing at all. What if there is a god that hasn't revealed itself to humans at all, and you're being stupid and wasting time trying to please this god, when it doesn't need anything from you at all?

And, how can you make yourself believe something solely out of fear?

The Canadien said:
"How would you cover off that default?"

? I think you are asking me how I cover my ass in case I'm wrong. First, what kind of god would be pleased if I only believed in it out of fear? Is that why you believe in Yahweh? Perhaps he thinks cowards like you deserve hell, and people like me who want evidence before believing, and refuse to cower in fear, are worthy of heaven.

The Canadien said:
"What would happen if you repeatedly ignored the requests and expectations of your boss?"

Depends. If my boss sent a moron to tell me what he wanted, and I didn't trust that moron, I would call the boss myself, or ask him to send me a direct communication. Instead, your "boss" asks me to trust his "ambassadors" -- ill-equipped brain-drainers with no obvious credibility over my own.

The Canadien said:
"You [sdanielmorgan] said, 'You may have decided yours is to follow this or that conception of god. Mine is to live well and leave the world a little better. Perhaps both of us end up DOING the same thing, just MOTIVATED by different "purposes".'
I don't think we'll both end up doing the same thing...your aims are purely at a humanistic level. They serve only Man. Mine are also at a spiritual level."

So when you take a dump, how does that serve God? When you feed your fat face? When you get in your car and drive to work (assuming you even do work)?

If I'm not terribly mistaken, your Jesus is reported as having said that the way that people treat the poor, sick and naked is the way that they treat him -- and that those who treat them well are favored, and those who treat them poorly are shunned: sounds pretty humanistic to me.

The Canadien said:
"YOU CAN do good works, yes...but they aren't part of the Redemption."

Really? I thought Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" and Mt. 25:31-45,
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite you in, or naked, and clothe You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves will also answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Sounds to me like those things matter a lot to Jesus -- notice he didn't say here whether or not those people "on the left" had *believed*, only how they *behaved*.

See http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html for more verses on the Bible and poverty.

The Canadien said:
"That's how Mother Teresa once put it so well."

And do you live like she did? Have you given everything up in order to serve God? Are you a monk? She may have said that her works weren't part of the Redemption, but she obviously thought Jesus' commandments about the poor were important enough to obey and follow and live. Do you, hypocrite?

The Canadien said:
"HEY, you could always become a MUSLIM..."

Why would I want to believe in human-made conceptions of gods? Whether the Jewish version, Christian version, or Muslim version...they're all "man creating god in man's own image": a petty, bloodthirsty, vengeful, misogynistic, slavery-endorsing, pathetic ghost in the sky.

The Canadien said:
"That's the other perfectly FALSE religion...if you don't want to think for yourself~"

That makes a lot of sense. I am an atheist, and I don't think for myself. You belong to a church that tells you what to do, and read a book to get instructions on daily living, and you *DO* think for yourself? That's some hilarity right there -- and some bitter irony.

Dude, go grow a brain.

Unfortunately, sdanielmorgan keeps returning to the same tired out pleas, the same wilted arguments hoping to bolster his errant, atheistic stance.

He can’t stand religion, or Christianity because he just doesn’t understand it.

He has proven that with this last vexatious and exasperated post.

Oh dear.

IF HIS mind wasn’t already closed, I could tell him about the rich, young man who boasted to Jesus about doing all the right things, obeying all the commandments but in the end was rejected (Matthew 19:16 – 28).

Jesus first zeroed in on the man’s failure to recognize the identity of Jesus…the man only called him teacher. The man never gives Jesus the salutation He was looking for. Jesus then tells him if he wants eternal life he must obey the commandments. After the man asks which ones, Jesus responds by naming ONLY the commandments that apply to his interactions with his fellow man.

Jesus remains silent about the first three, which order your relationship with God.

The man affirms to Jesus he has done all these. Nevertheless, the man senses he lacks something and asks Jesus what it is.

Jesus tells him to give all he has to the poor, that he will then have treasure in heaven, and then come, and follow Him. The man leaves sad because he is not able to comply and become perfect. The man’s wealth was his god and owned him in the end. While the remaining text talks about higher sacrifice to God, and higher reward, that is not our concern here.

You see, sdanielmorgan there are obligations to both God and man…not just to man.

Please read the Bible, in context.

Don’t try and reinvent the exegesis “wheel”, and there are standards for biblical exegesis you must comply with, or you come across as a simpleton or worse, a Penecostal. If I was called to speak about chemistry, I would do my homework and not dispense with the known fundamentals and just try to wing it before the crowds.

The Bible is not a book about morality, but is primarily a REVELATION about God, Himself.

There would be no way you could ever know ANYTHING about God UNLESS he chose to reveal Himself to you!

The record of the BIBLE is the WRITTEN WAY He has chosen to reveal Himself to mankind.

The Bible has ALSO recorded God’s interaction with mankind.

So pick up the Book.

(Put down your science books, drop your guard a little, and you just might get a glimpse of God. We are only sane, in so far as we see the truth!)

HAVE THE COURAGE to seek the TRUTH!

And you’ll never figure that all out with your mind. God is beyond our human understanding. God has revealed Himself to us in four ways: in NATURE, in your CONSCIENCE within, in the Bible, and most perfectly in the PERSON and LIFE of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

From Genesis to Revelation the Bible is actually, really, all about Jesus.

Why don’t you enroll in a CCD or RCIA program at your local Roman Catholic Church? You may not agree at the end of the journey, but you’ll at least know why Catholics believe as they do.

Or check out Catholic Answers for reasonable explanations of the Faith.

If your live your whole life and don’t finally secure friendship with God by your life’s end, you will then have missed the mark, and the whole point of that GIFT, which was your life!

According to the Bible, the Kingdom of Heaven is in our heart. It is not at the end of the world, but in our heart. In what sort of abode does the heart dwell? It does not dwell in a place that harbors all the elements of death, but rather one that can overcome them and dissemi?nate life.
The Kingdom of Heaven cannot be found in the physical world ? it is not of this world. As such, it starts from the point where we actualize the visions of our heart. Finding that one place enables us to welcome the Kingdom of Heaven.
That being so, the Kingdom of Heav?en is not coming through the end of the world, but rather through us establish?ing that starting point in our heart; it is like the fulcrum for balancing a pair of scales. The purpose of a scale is to become level, but it starts out tilting towards the right and not the left. It begins with a tilt to the right.
So, the Kingdom of Heaven begins from the heart. From where in the heart does the kingdom originate? It originates from the place where it can conquer the world. Even if the Kingdom of Heaven were to come externally, if our hearts were evil and could not harmonize with it, then that kingdom would be useless. Accordingly, the basis upon which we can welcome the Kingdom of Heaven is not something external, but rather, it is ourselves. We are the problem. The pil?lar ? the fulcrum ? that can support the Kingdom of Heaven is not our external environment, but our heart.
Jesus? disciples did not understand the reality of his teaching. In working to prepare a foundation of happiness for the coming Kingdom of Heaven, they had self-centered concerns for their position. Seeing this, Jesus fundamentally demol?ished this fallacy and taught that the Kingdom was in one?s heart. Those who do not create the Kingdom within their hearts would be unable to contribute to Heaven even if placed in its environ?ment. An irresolute heart cannot pro?duce perfect action; perfect action arises only through absolute resolve.
Therefore, what matters is how much our mind yearns for goodness. While yearning for and striving to follow the path of historical goodness, we must overcome our circumstances, no matter how bloodstained and tearful they are. However lonely the path of our struggles, we must not avoid the path. Rather, we must instead unswervingly blaze a trail with a mind to break through and move on. God?s Kingdom begins from our res?olution and determination to open up an environment for our body to unite with such a mind. Where the actions of the mind and body are separated, the Kingdom does not exist. Advancement towards the Kingdom begins where the mind and body are united. When they act separately, it will not come about.
In this sense, Jesus was teaching that the Kingdom would come about when we attain the self-governing character to advance with mind-body unity while ridding ourselves of the circumstances that would cause us to veer to the right or left.
The Kingdom does not come through the efforts of others but by our own efforts. Being fallen people, you must deny yourselves. If I cannot bring about the Kingdom by myself, it will then be done by someone else. If that happens, then I must unite with that person in order to reach the Kingdom. I would have to follow and keep in step with him. If he were to go east, I would have to follow. We should not think of going west if he goes east, or judge his actions. There should not be any criticism.

Hey Debbie, maybe you should learn something about net etiquette yourself before complaining about someone TYPING IN ALL CAPS.
You see, by posting a giant url (aka web address) you end up stretching the web page to fit the width of the text.
This makes the page very difficult to read, as the width of the page would usually match that of the browser window, formatting the text to fit that width.
If you had been a courteous human being, you would've gone to tinyurl.com and shrunk your gigantic url down to only a few characters, something that easily would've fit the width of the page rather than stretch it as you have managed to do.
Well, congrats on showing your true colors as well as further demonstrating your ineptitude when it comes to the internet, as you don't seem to know how to operate a search engine either, since I saw your CNN appearance with little difficulty (albiet through the hard work of others who had previously linked to it, I'm sure if I were to try I'd be able to find the link quite quickly on google)
Anyways, just to repeat myself: GO TO TINYURL.COM WHEN POSTING LARGE WEB ADDRESSES ON A WEB PAGE TO PREVENT IT FROM BECOMING AN UNMANAGEABLE MESS AS THIS PAGE HAS NOW BECOME.
OR, IF YOU WANT TO SIMPLY VANDALIZE HER SITE, GO TO GIANTURL.COM AND HAVE THAT SAME LINK TURNED INTO A EXTREMELY LONG URL, PERHAPS EVEN LONGER THAN WHAT IT WAS BEFORE, JUST TO BE ANNOYING LIKE DEBBIE.

Well, CanadiEn, you again failed to muster an response to anything I said. However, you did comment further more on Debbie's patently ignorant statements, which are really an insult to all decent people of religion. I will address those, which you claim to be "100% accurate".

but first..

"ATHEISTS…that's how all Catholics and other Christians I know PERCEIVE YOU."

I know many Catholics (including friends and family members) who disagree with you. Even if it were true, it doesn't really matter how you perceive us. Nobody cares. Just don't trample on our rights.

"So EVERYTIME you are SCANDALIZED by a Christmas tree or THUNDERSTRUCK by a Merry Christmas sign in a public arena CHRISTIANS see you! AS HOSTILE!! And AS BIGOTS!!!"

LOL, You assume way too much about atheists. I'll remember these words and laugh next Christmas as I am sitting around the tree celebrating Christmas with my family. Hostile, indeed.

"FREEDOM OF RELIGION doesn’t mean freedom FROM religion."

100% INACCURATE

This is false Christian rhetoric and contractictory to the concept of individual rights. This is why, in light of the extensive history of oppressive religion, the First Amendment clearly states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It takes a great feat of self-delusion to interpret that as saying meaning "You must have a religion." But in case you're really that ignorant of the facts, note that freedom from religion has been confirmed, such as in Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 which confirmed that the "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion."

"The Real Discrimination is ATHEISTS against Americans who are religious."

100% INACCURATE

Real Discrimination? REAL discrimination!?
Real discrimination is the fact that there are many US states with LAWS FORBIDDING atheists from running for office or even being a witness in court. THAT is discrimination. Sometimes these laws forbid even all non-Christians, yet Christians are being discriminated against? Let me guess, you want to tell me there was no holocaust next?

They (atheists) are the ones who are intolerant against Christians.

100% INACCURATE

This is basically the same thing as the last statement, and just as WRONG.

You saw the CNN special, I assume, you saw the family ostracized. When was the last time you saw an American Christian family mistreated in that way, and forced to move? You haven't. In fact, this isn't even a one-time deal. There have been other families like this on the news, including Jewish families, also forced to move because of Christians.

The degree to which some people can delude themselves amazes me. Christians cram their beliefs down everyone else's throat, and whenever someone says "leave me alone" they cry intolerance.

I suppose I should count myself lucky. These days the progress of secular society has watered led to the watered down Christianity sufficiently that you only want to trample over my individual rights. A few centuries ago, you would probably murder me, in accordance with your "moral" religion.

A word on the original topic, CNN recognized that the treatment of atheists in the show by the unqualified panel was inappropriate. Last night they revisited the issue and gave it a more fair treatment, so I commend them for recognizing a mistake and correcting it.

Can’t you atheists go off on your own…like the Amish?

It would be better for us, and better for you!

NOW, here’s a quote for you!

“Thomas Nagel, the philosopher, recently pointed out that if we are to believe evolutionary explanations, and therefore that the necessary seed material existed at the time of the Big Bang, we have to realize that there is no scientific explanation for the existence of that material in the first place. A complete understanding of evolution would involve answering a question as complex as evolution itself: "How did such a thing come into existence?" We have done nothing but push the problem one step back.

Or, as Stephen Hawking put it, "Why does the universe go to the bother of existing?" On that point we are all ignorant -- and only a little closer to knowledge than our ancestors who believed that sacrificing a goat would bring good crops. The profound intellectual failure of atheists lies in their fundamentalist-like aversion to the words, "We don't know." Robert Fulford, atheist

The additional problem with atheism is that it doesn’t offer a credible or inspiring purpose for individual human existence. People are always look for meaning to their lives! Why is that?

“Oh, are souls were meant for thee, Lord…and we shall find no rest, until we rest in Thee” ~ St. Augustine

Glad to see you like the advance of secular society…and the watering down of Christianity. You and your Muslim brothers can cheer together here!

We have seen the HATE and MURDER automatons active in NAZI GERMANY against the Jews, in the FORMER Soviet Union against the Ukrainians, and through enacted law in the United States against the UNBORN.

Why don’t you try to go see a live SECOND TERM abortion at your local hospital, or the bodies remaining thereafter?

“Hush now…play nice…we can’t allow you to see those things!”

See ATHEISTIC MURDER is always done outside of the public view, behind closed doors in the "silence" of atheism!

ONLY an ATHEIST would stand there, deny there is a life and then snuff out that life, O Man of the Secular City!

But what the CATHOLIC CHURCH has said is the only truth;

“What is becoming human, is human already.”

That’s okay, MOCKER of Jesus and His bestowed title, you keep your atheistic world with all its “kaleidoscope of ongoing horrors”.

No thanks…I don’t want any part of it–

I’m glad your family is “okay” with your trivializing of Jesus and the redeeming work that was done on the cross. They must be like those silly pagans with only “patches of Catholicism”, that I routinely ignore at Mass…all the time.

You know the ones…they haven’t left the Church yet…you just wonder why they’re still there, I mean…they never participate in the Mass…except in a rather lifeless, mechanized way~

No wonder you're an avowed atheist!

‘nuff said ~

It is dishonest to try and sneak in that quote portraying Robert Fulford as if he were some atheist spokesperson recanting of atheism. In fact, he is a journalist with creationist leanings who routinely makes baseless attacks on atheism.

Whether you agree with him or not, you certainly cannot claim he speaks for us. You really need to stop idolizing media nuts like Schlussel and Fulford.

You bring up the Nazis again, why? It only shows your ignorance. How much self-delusion does it take to convince yourself of this stuff? Do you really mean to say that Nazis were atheists and they decided to kill jews because there is no god? So why just the jews and few others? Wouldn't a supposedly "atheist holocaust" have included all religious people?

How about the KKK, are we to believe they are atheists too?
What about the Inquisition and the Crusades, damn atheists were probably behind those too, or maybe you claim they just never happened? How about the Salem Witch Trials, were atheists there lighting the fires to burn teenaged girls? No, I didn't think so.

Oh wait, when religious people kill people its okay, because then it is "God's will" and if the victims really were righteous, they'll be in heaven anyway, so no harm done.

Bringing up an abortion is like the last cry of someone who has nothing left to stand on except a desparate appeal to emotion. Again, you are assuming WAY too much about atheists and trying to force your assumptions on us, as you would force your religion on us. The fact is, there are atheists who oppose abortion and there are Christians (including Catholics) who are pro-choice.

We agree that many of the people in mass are not really into it. More and more people are realizing they do not need religion to live a moral, productive, and rewarding life. That's a good thing.

I also give credit to the Catholic church for the few contributions it has made in helping people become more open to reason and science and to make ammends for moral wrongdoing by Catholics in the past. Pope John Paul II wasn't perfect, but he did take some important steps for Catholicism and religion in general.

Among Pope John Paul II's Good Works:
- Updating the Church's position to accept the theory of evolution.
- Publicly apologizing for inactivity and silence during the Holocaust
- Publicly apologizing for the persecution of Galilei, who said the Earth orbits the sun
- Publicly apologizing for Catholic involvement in the African slave trade
- Publicly apologizing for the Church Hierarchy's role in burnings at the stake and the religious wars that followed the Protestant Reformation
- Publicly apoligizing for the injustices committed against women in the name of Christ, the violation of women's rights and for the historical denigration of women.
- Publicly apoligizing for missionary abuses in the past against indigenous peoples of the South Pacific
- For the massacre of Aztecs and other Mesoamericans by the Spanish in the name of the Church.

Catholicism has always been an easy target for ridicule (sex scandals, anyone?), but I think the structure of the Catholic church is a good asset, because the Papal system gives an individual the leadership power necessary to do such things.

There is more to be done of course, but these are important steps, and it was good of Pope John Paul II to recognize the need for him to take them.

Contrast this with some OTHER Catholics, who prefer to just always blame atheists and non-Catholics, and insist that "only Catholicism offers a true and noble morality."

excerpt of an article i am reading about the Dumbing down of America.............

"However, within that of the Christian fundamentalist community (one that did so very much to enable Bush-Cheney to be elected), there has been a deliberate attempt to discount what we have learned from science (as in global warming), as well as that of rational thought (that the world was created in a period of one week's time).

These folks believe that their religious beliefs are absolutely independent of anything and everything else in life, that their beliefs about God are more valid, and should be allowed to supersede every other source of knowledge. It doesn't matter to them if what they believe makes no sense at all or if what they believe is in absolute conflict with that of scientific evidence. To them, there is no gray, nothing but black and white, no critical thinking, nor even a willingness to listen to "the other side." There is just us (the good guys) and them (the bad guys), and, regardless of what you say, I am right and your are wrong, and if you do not agree with me, then you are going to go to Hell... and that is that! Probably the best example of such is an abject unwillingness on the part of so many folks in our country to face the mounting evidence that such a Godly country (The USA) led by such a fine Christian man (George Walker Bush) could have led our country into such an atrocious war while, along the way, having perhaps committed an amalgam of crimes against humanity. You see.. to hell with logic and scientific evidence, the truth (reality) is simply a matter of what I want it to be!"

Yes, I have read that article, I disagreed with nearly all of his conclusions.

As for the "dumbing down" of America, I think liberals are just as much, but likely more to blame because of their advocation of subjectivism and constant push to make Americans dependent on the welfare state.

A few months ago, Robert Tracinski wrote an article "The Secular Right" about this, from exactly the opposite stance of your article.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/the_secular_right.html

At any rate, this just further illustrates why religious people should not make assumptions about atheists. Atheist describes what someone is not, not what he is.

HUMAN EMOTION…the sworn enemy of the atheist.

Except the “other” TINMAN, that one from Oz at least suspects…that there is something he lacks…yes…yes – a heart!

But not the ATHEIST…no…O CAPTAIN of “The Secular City”.

ABORTION…GENOCIDE…murder…the logical, acceptable and PREDICTABLE result of an atheistic world…an atheistic mindset, an atheistic heart!

WHATEVER crimes the Catholic Church may have been guilty of in its’ last 2000 years, ATHEISM has caught up with (just considering abortion only even)…and mightily surpassed all those ancient numbers – real or dreamed up…smashing all previously held records, in look!…only so short a span, of just 60 years!

CHRISTIANS salute you atheism…after we look at you…we can proudly look OURSELVES in the mirror again, and our past doesn’t seem so bad, after all!

We thought we were rogues…but you…YOU, are the true rogue…the true spawn of all that is dark, malicious and categorically evil.

Yes…CHRISTIANITY sleeps well tonight and our conscience is now clear–

Thank-you.

WE ARE FORGIVEN and well you, you are nothing…like you’ve always been.

Pope John Paul II apologized for our failings…of course Atheism, although the murderous author of so much bloodly and cataclysmic horror WORLDWIDE…is far too brazen to stoop to that!

As thousands of abortions are committed daily, behind closed doors, for a generous fee of course, and womb after womb becomes another tomb, don’t worry Freethinking Tinman you have won!

BUT WHEN that lie that about abortion finally strikes home with those guilty women, and God accuses them in the silence of their souls, that place where others are not privy to, and where even your indoctrination can’t reach them, the Church will be there to pick up the pieces.

JESUS saves.

Always.

You said, “…but I think the structure of the Catholic Church is a good asset, because the Papal system gives an individual the leadership power necessary to do such things.”

Wow…sounds like someone wants a return to those days of the Holy, Roman Empire!

While everyone knows a closet queer or two…here is something new friends…a CLOSET CATHOLIC–

???!!!

+++

Excuse me, Canadian. Could you please change your sign in name. I would hate to think people might get the impression that we are all brain-washed indoctrinaires. Thank you.

you are all such hipocrites in that you kill and say its "God's Will" yet wasnt it God who gave Moses the 10 COMMANDMENTS including "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" how can you say its "God's will" if he condemns killing in the first place???????

Atheists never get on their high horse and think they are better than anyone and all that just cause of what they believe.

WHY cant you people just accept that there are others on this planet that do not believe what you believe and leave it at that and not discriminate against them? making them lose their jobs, thir homes, basicly their lives theyve worked for just cause they dont believe the same thing you do. that doesnt seem very damn christian of you now does it?????

Pat Burke…my family has been in Canada since 1674 and I'm a Canadien NOT a Canadian. Since I have a small percentage of Native blood in me, one might say I’m eternally Canadien.

So when foreigners LIKE YOU try to tell me what is or isn’t Canadian…really, you just need to shut up.

You’re exactly the type of smug, self-satisfied, “America bashing” Canadian most Americans rightfully loathe. Canadians like you are a national embarrassment and the reason I must constantly explain to Americans I encounter that I’m not like you think I am.

Debbie herself said it best…when she called Canadians like you “Canadian whores”!

Hey Pat, the LIBERALS are trying to play “Kyoto” again…so run along and play, play, play…like all the other disenchanted, cultureless Anglos around Ontario seem so eager to do–

LOL. Canadien your last reply to me was just a bunch of babbling. Can you not back up a point with facts? Don't just give your unfounded opinions based on assumptions about a group of people that you clearly know nothing about.

Look at my posts and posts by some of the other people here. I make a point and then expand on it, then back it up with facts. Try it some time.

And stop repeating false claims that have already been proven wrong unless you have something new to contribute as to why they are right.

You spout random remarks based on bigotted stereotypes as if they are supposed to be taken on your authority, despite the fact that they've already been discounted. Sorry, we're not buying it.

ChristTheRedeemer,

thats what religious people do. they just want you to take their word for it, take it on faith, and not look into things too closely cause if you do you will see its false and a lie.

1907 – America: Christian society + Christian morality in America = No lives lost to abortion

2007 – America: Blended society of Christians, Jews, Secular Humanists, Agnostics and Atheists = Millions of lives lost to abortion since February 1971, first in America, but then the rationalization spreads worldwide. 12, 000, 000 Americans were slaughtered through legalized abortion by 1981, making this “war” on Americans the largest ever, and with more lives lost than all previous wars put together!

The ATHEIST Dr. Bernard Nathanson (by his own admission in the book he authored “Aborting America” and independently in “Abortion: the Silent Holocaust”) organizes a political action group (NARAL) conjuring up facts and figures and home-made propaganda to support repealing abortion laws and cleverly targets the Catholic hierarchy through his own special brand of anti-Catholicism and manipulates the co-operative, and sympathetic media by “painting” the pro-life movement as a Catholic issue only.

It’s (woman’s right to an abortion) the law of the land in America. So was slavery once. Neither was right. Slavery is now gone…but abortion remains.

– “Do you really mean to say that Nazis were atheists and they decided to kill jews because there is no god? So why just the jews and few others? Wouldn't a supposedly "atheist holocaust" have included all religious people?”–

Adolf Hitler was alienated from the Church by his extreme political views and excommunicated in 1930, “ipso facto”.

Hitler’s brand of anti-Semitism stemmed from popular German street mythology about behind-the-scenes Jewish societal dominance of that country. There is also some evidence that Hitler as a young painter was excluded from an art exposition and his average paintings dismissed by three Jewish art critics who were connected with the event. This in turn, then solidified his own horrific brand of anti-Semitism.

THERE YOU HAVE it, two modern atheists with acknowledged records of aggressive and successful large-scale genocide that will be forever credited to them.

Both atheists, to achieve their genocidal goal described their targeted victims as “non-persons”, both overtly and covertly, through an extensive propaganda machine and political maneuvering.

if Hitler was excommunicated from the Church then he isnt an atheist. he still believes the same stuff you do. so that still would make him a Christian.
the whole excommunication thing sounds pretty juvenile anyway to me. its like little bobby down the street telling little mikey he cant be in his club for whatever reason.
also Canadien you can try to distort facts to fit your THEORY of what happened back then all you want but you cant prove anything. you cannot say WITHOUT A DOUBT he did all that BECAUSE he was a supposed Atheist or not. he did it and you are saying he is an atheist cause of the excommunication but that doesnt make one the cause of his actions.

Yeah, you are really doing those of us in the pro-life movement a disservice by spreading false information. Did it never occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, the lower number of abortions in the early 1900s has to do with the fact that modern abortion techniques didn't reach notariety in the US and Britain until the 1960s? To be sure, women most certainly did practice other methods before then, contrary to what you imply.

You still haven't shown what abortion has to do with Atheism. In your bigotted mind you just assume they go hand in hand. They do not.

Some example secular Pro-Life organizations:
Libertarians 4 Life http://www.l4l.org/
Atheist & Agnostic Pro-Life League http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html
More Non-Traditional Pro-Life Organizations http://www.gargaro.com/abortion/alt.html

And what do you know, there are Christians (including Catholics who are pro-Choice.. go figure):
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice http://www.rcrc.org/
Catholics for a Free Choice http://www.cath4choice.org/

Further, a Study released in 2000 by the Center for Reason, and mirrored in similar studies, show that Christians are just as likely as others to have abortions. Incidentally, Catholics are found to actually have a much higher abortion rate than average.

So I think we can finally lay that one to rest, eh?

I can't belive you're still bringing up Hitler. The best source for information about what Hitler believed is Hitler himself, and he made it quite clear that he believed in God and considered himself a Christian in his book, "Mein Kaumpf." You never answered the question "Why only the Jews?," which you even quoted.

Nothing I have read indicates that Hitler was ever individually and officially excommunicated. Please provide a source if you have one. The lists I've read included people ranging from Joe Dimaggio to Martin Luthor, but curiously no Hitler. Go figure. Also, of note, Hitler's book "Mein Kaumpf" also never appears on the Church's Librorum Prohibitorum (Prohibited Books), though many other benign works of fiction and nonfiction certainly were. How odd.

Either way, it doesn't matter. We can forgive the Church for standing idly by while one of its own baptized members were committed such atrocities, just don't try to throw some pretense of higher morality in our face.

And yes, as John S correctly said, even if he had been excommunicated, it doesn't change the fact that he was a believer, and certainly not an atheist. Now, I know you don't have much left in your corner, but could you stop with these silly straw man argument? They only expose your ignorance.

"The National Government regards the two Christian confessions Catholicism and Protestantism as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people... I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - Adolf Hitler, March 23, 1933

“Center For Reason” sounds like it was spawned from the same abyss as NARAL…and reeks of ATHEISTS with an anti-Christian agenda.

I can say with 100% certainty that not a single Catholic had an abortion last year, or in any year.

If you are a Catholic and you procure or participate in an abortion or public policy favouring abortions…you are no longer a Catholic. THERE ARE no Pro-Choice Catholics. That censure also applies to other grave, public sins and to those sinners as well (Adolf Hitler).

You obviously have attitudinal barriers to accepting an authoritative Church that can suspend or remove membership within its religious community.

Will you ever understand that point?

Keep reading.

If you want to talk about Protestant theology and Protestant membership guidelines…go find a Protestant.

But I’m sure your quippy responses are found to be entertaining for the other atheists reading and raucous in their laughter, who sadly are just as lost as you are, and just as unable to reason through to the right conclusion.

Will you ever be able to pin the tail on the Catholic donkey?

I know you desperately want all those sinners to be Catholic…I know you’ll feel better with that…superior.

I will however accept the designation, ex-Catholic.

But I know that takes away the fun because you want to bash Catholics…bashing ex–Catholics just isn’t right…they’re already kinda’ down and out…sad, alone, useless…~

The BEST SOURCE of information about Hitler IS NOT himself. Hitler believed a lot of things…like through a grade school understanding of Catholicism he could remain a Catholic just cause he wanted to, even though, through his own horrific actions that membership was OFFICIALLY (1930 - the German Conference of Bishops excommunicated all Nazis) and AUTOMATICALLY (Jewish genocide, needlessly attacking Poland etc.) revoked.

So that assertion was grandiose …even for Hitler.

Hitler also believed that radio addresses about imagined German battle success was just as real as actual battle wins. General Patton disagreed.

The Church did not idly stand by during WW II at all. Make that assertion and this dialogue with me is over. I have no time for liars! But that’s been my experience with atheists thus far…as distorters of the truth.

How the Church helped is well documented. The Church very quickly found Herself surrounded as Europe had entirely fallen. Come to think of it, the Canadians had already been fighting for two years before a single American showed up in battle!

Where were you, mighty America?

I’ll tell you. Held up by blind, indecisive and uncertain DEMS in Congress!

DEMS who thought that running and hiding was far better a course, than helping a nation friend, or fighting a foe whose newest acts of barbarism could be viewed by every American, at every movie theatre nationwide, every single week, for the two years of your complacent inactivity!

In Rome it was discussed and debated whether or not to issue a direct excommunication to Hitler, and again to all Nazis. That would have only resolved an issue of pride, however. Vatican neutrality would have been lost, and all churches razed. Saying nothing allowed the Vatican to have the appearance of neutrality while individual parishes could help smuggle people, documents, information out etc.

YOU KNOW kinda’ like the “neutral” Americans who smuggled fighterplanes and bombers into Canada to aid the Commonwealth war effort, before America could “officially” (lack of public support) join the cause.

Pope John Paul II who lived through WW II changed tactics when Communism was challenged in the 80s.

After Polish priest, Father Jerzy was captured and then murdered by the Polish Communists, Pope John Paul II was outraged by the lack of strong, local Church leadership and the ineffective Polish community support for the priest, wondering, “why did nobody help him?”

So Pope John Paul II issued a direct order to all Polish clergy that they were to help out the Solidarity Movement, to the best of their individual ability “under pain of sin.” Anyone aiding the Communists was “ex-communicato.”

So it was entirely clear to the clergy, and also to the parish community where the Church stood and that Communist sympathizers were not to be tolerated within the tightly knit Polish community.

The Church had learned from its mistakes in WW II.

The WHOLE ABORTION INDUSTRY was created by an atheist (Dr. Bernard Nathanson).

Since you can’t throw him out…he is still one of yours.

He still remains an unbeliever. Although, he is now a Pro-Lifer.

Hitler believed something…he followed astrology manically.

So I grant he was a composite. Unbelief is known by its “fruits” as is Christian belief.

I see no action of Hitler that is strong evidence and which indicates that he ever was a Christian.

First off, do your research. Dr. Bernard Nathanson, after becoming pro-life, became a Catholic in 1996 (presumeably through the efforts of a member of Opus Dei, though I haven't confirmed that). He was previously a member of the pro-choice movement, and performed abortions himself, but he hardly "created the whole abortion industry." That's like pointing at someone and saying they created the whole dentistry industry.

Hey, if you don't like that study, there are others. Off-hand I recall studies by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood, but there are many more, and they agree. For whatever reason, Catholics have a higher abortion rate than other other Christians. I guess its some worldwide conspiracy against Catholics, huh?

You can say they are no longer Catholics. How convenient is it that you can play pope and just call any Catholic who disagrees with a you a non-Catholic. Unfortunately, I don't think they care what you think. You'll have to take it up with them. What we certainly CAN say is that they aren't atheists. This coupled with the fact that that there are many atheists who oppose abortion leads to only one conclusion: Whether or not one believes in God has no bearing on whether they are pro-choice or pro-life. So you have no point.

And no, I don't care whether they are Catholics or whatever, it's just more fun to find examples of Catholic hypocrisy and immorality, because you seem to deem Catholicism and its followers as incapable of immorality, and that every non-Catholic is some immoral cutthroat. Suffice to say, you are wrong.

Contrary to your delusions, the reality is, as said by Australian Cardinal Edward Cassidy, "we like [...] to speak of the saints and take joy in the fact that there are people like Mother Teresa in our church, but we also have to be realistic and say that there are many people today, as at any stage in any church, in any community, who fall very short."

Again, with your remarks against Democrats, you show how much you rely on stereotypes. I am not a Democrat, and in fact, I agree with every word you said about the Democrats and how they always want to run and hide or call for appeasement. I voted for Bush both times, and I don't regret it. I think that national security concerns far outweigh the matters in which I would disagree with Bush, such as his Faith Based Initiative. Are you beginning to see how you let stereotypes influence your judgements about atheists? If nothing else, that is what I want you to learn from this discussion.

The Church DID stand idly by during the holocaust. - The pope was informed as early as 1941 by members of his own clergy about deportations of jews, but the pope did nothing.
- In September, 1942, Monsignor Montini (who would become Pope Paul VI) sent Pope Pius XII a letter telling him that "the massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms," but the pope did nothing.
- That same month, US representative in a statement supported by representatives from the UK, Brazil, Uruguay, Belgium, and Poland, warned that the Vatican's moral presitige was being injured by the pope's silence.
- When Harold Tittman, US delegate to the Vatican, asked if the pope could issue a proclamation condemning genocide, Luigi Maglione (Cardinal Secretary of State) replied that the church was "unable to denounce publicly particular atrocities."
- In January 1943 Berlin Bishop Konrad von Preysing and exiled president Wladislaw Raczkiewicz requested that the pope publically denounce violence against Jews. Again, the pope refused.
- In October 1943, the German Ambassador to the vatican say the pope isn't getting "carried away" by reports of the holocaust, into "making any demonstrative statements against the deportation of the Jews."

These are just a few of the many examples of how the Vatican clearly did sit idly by during the holocaust. To be sure, he did provide a lot of money for such things as visas for fleeing jews, and encouraged convents and monastaries to help hide Jews in trouble, but never did he himself come out, take a stand and condemn the holocaust.

The question is why. Well, you yourself acknowledged it. In its desire for neutrality, the church forbade itself from publicly condemning the Nazis. The problem is that the Pope is supposed to be a moral authority, or at least one who speaks on behalf of a moral authority. Thus, there is no place for neutrality, it should always be outspokenly on the side of good. A TRULY moral authority would not hesitate to condemn genocide, for any reason.

I still think its hilarious how Joe Dimaggio was excommunicated in 1954 for bigamy, yet Hitler kills 6 million Jews and the Church is silent. I guess the Church only handles the easy cases and is too cowardly to stand up for its beliefs, or worse, they let political concerns interfere with moral judgement.

pretty interesting poll. more people would ratehr vote for someone who practices something the bible condemns (homosexuality) rather than someone who just doesnt believe in god.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/gallup_20070219_diversity.png

whole article:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/black_president_more_likely_than_mormon_or_atheist_/

personally it doesnt matter to me what someone is or what they practice as long as they will do something good for the country not just for certain percent of the country or their own agenda. i would prefer someone to run this country that does take facts into consideration rather than just have faith things will work out or go their way cause thats not taking an active role in the outcome and actually getting htings done.
id personally rather vote for an athiest than a religious person no matter what religion they are. cause they will more likely be more of a realist and see things for what they are.

John S, I'm obviously not against voting for an atheist, but I would never vote for an atheist just because he's an atheist.

Knowing that a candidate doesn't believe in God tells me nothing about them; it's like saying that someone is "not a Mormon."

What concerns me more is the fact that many states have laws that outright prevent atheists from even running.

No doubt these laws will be declared unconstitutional when/if they are challenged, but the mere fact that such legislated bigotry exists is outrageous. And then morons like Debbie Schlussel have the nerve to say we are on the attack, or that we are discriminating against them.

National day of mourning in Canada on the 20th, and yesterday was Ash Wednesday…so i couldn't really respond til' now

Was Hitler a Christian etc.? What was the the Catholic response to Nazism??

For a little more thorough and intellectual response, see here: http://www.relapsedcatholic.com/

National day of mourning in Canada on the 20th, and yesterday was Ash Wednesday�so i couldn't really respond til' now

Was Hitler a Christian etc.? What was the the Catholic response to Nazism??

For a little more thorough and intellectual response, see here: http://www.relapsedcatholic.com/

A MORE PRECISE link: http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110009697

No problem, I figured you would be occupied.

I am familiar that article. In fact, I know Mr. Hay from when I attended MSU.

I agree that there is nothing to be gained by replacing Judeo-Christian religion with any other religion, or by replacing God with some "secular deity" such as a dictator, the state, or any other "higher power." I'd say environmentalism would also fit into this category as well, to give a modern example.

The solution is promoting individualism and reason.

Uhm...one thing is the discrimination against atheists going on over there in the US, but what's up with all this Euro-bashing?

Since when did the whole of Europe become first atheistic and then converted to Islam (I fail to see the correlation.
You're going to have to explain that one to me. How does a failure to believe in any gods or an active belief in the non-existence of any gods make you believe in one.
Especially one that is basically the same as the Christian one?) and more importantly why did it become a place to condemn American "Heretics" to go? Yes, I am an atheist and a European and no I was not ordered to respond on this website by anyone. I found the video by coincidence on youtube and decided to find out who this woman who apparently equates Islamic terrorists and atheists is. And let me tell you right now, Europe in general (as if it was only one country?) is neither more atheistic nor more Islamic than The States are. I live in Denmark and unlike the States Christianity actually IS mentioned in the Danish constitution. I come from the Faroe Islands where it is even worse. There the Christian fundamentalists managed to stop The Da Vince Code from being shown and have condemned all homosexuals to Hell, prominent politicians speaking against them saying they're the cause of every calamity possible, while others are beating them up.

Don't be fooled. Almost all Western societies (this includes Europe) are more or less bigoted Christian fundamentalists and what I am wondering is: if these nations truly are, as claimed, Christian nations based on "Christian values." (What? The value of discriminating against everyone who thinks different while claiming they're the one doing the discriminating?) then why on Earth aren't they acting like it? Can anyone truly claim to recognize even a remote glimpse of "love thy neighbor" and "do onto others..." in all of this? Did Jesus force people to believe as he did? Did Jesus mix his religion with the state? ("Give Ceasar what Ceasar's is.") Did Jesus beat up homosexuals and call them "Satan's Ill-weeds" causing them to flee the country? Did Jesus ever compare peace-loving people who just want to be free to make up their own minds to terrorists?

I'm just asking. When will self-proclaimed "christians" truly become Christian, with tru Jesuan values instead of using Jesus as an excuse for their hatred?

Sketch Sepahi…you know you’re only seeing the “MEDIA JESUS” when you rave about all the “nice” things Jesus said. The media quotes all those nice “love quotes” and then bashes Christians over the head with these very quotes…as if that’s all there was.

What about the many, many HARD SAYINGS of JESUS?

He called religious hypocrites, “whited sepultures”.

He called the Sadducees…”you brood of vipers.”

He said to the common populace, “as evil as you are, you do know how to give good things to your children”.

What about the “woes” Jesus declared upon those who have “their fill” now etc.

JUST BECAUSE Debbie Schlussel or Kathy Shaidle here in Canada are not the “poster children of niceness” for the Jewish or Catholic faiths does not invalidate their messages!

The APOSTLE PAUL said a bunch of things about the underling John Mark being basically “useless” for the Apostolate but later tempered his tone when Paul observed consistent and positive change in his understudy.

The reason Debbie repeatedly harpoons some of the same people, is because no change is forthcoming.

And the stakes are very high, friend!

POOR Homeland SECURITY means some Islamic crazies could sneak nukes onto US soil!!

And we know what’ll happen next.

Further, HOMOSEXUALITY has been called an “abomination” in the Old Testimony.

Jesus spoke so severely about the crucible of marriage, the necessity for the highest of standards to be upheld, we can easily conclude He views homosexuality as an abhoration, an affront to His Father’s Creation and the natural order.

So…looking forward…QUOTE the COMPLETE JESUS not YOUR VERSION of Jesus…please.

Once again, Debbie, you have some great points.

"Over here, as I pointed out on CNN, atheists are on the attack against religion and G-d only when Christians and Jews are involved, not when Muslims and Islam are."

The so-called atheists are completely idiotic - and vicious - when it comes to Islam. Consider how much horror Islam has caused, as well as the grotesque nature of Islamic teachings that strictly follow the Koran and hadiths - yet, these "atheists" actually have the audacity to defend this nightmare creeping up on our shores.

As a critic of organized religion in general, I too have been assailed by these dunderheads you describe. It's quite shameful that they consider themselves "thinking" individuals, frankly.

In case anyone hasn't seen them yet, take a look at these Quotes from the Koran: http://www.truthbeknown.com/islamquotes.htm

Keep up the good work on this issue, Debbie.

Acharya S
http://www.TruthBeKnown.com

iQGuy wrote:
--------------------------------------------------
As for the facts of history:
--------------------------------------------------
"... the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"

-Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, written during the administration of George Washington, signed by President John Adams, and ratified unanimously by the United States Senate.

Does it get any clearer than that? *unanimous*

**********************************************

The Canadien wrote:"You guys are such out and out liars. You twist words and leave out a huge deal of quotes that support the religious views of the founding fathers.

First of all, the Treaty of Tripoli said "the government" was not founded on the Christian religion. They did NOT state this wasn't a country founded on Christian principles."

**********************************************

Nice. baseless name calling. If I have asserted something as true that is not true, then blast away with the liar accusations. Until then, you're name-calling is just mindless slander.

You're right, the Treaty of Tripoli said that the United States **government** is not founded in any way on the Christian religion. Yes, the United States is a government. What is special about the United States, and unique at the time of its founding, was that it was a government defined by laws, not people. I.e. the United States government is defined by a constitution - not by a monarchy or oligarchy of leaders which are above the laws of that constitution. And nowhere in the United States Constitution are there any laws that could be exclusively characterized as Christian, nor are there any respects paid to Jesus, Christian principles as such, or any other higher authority. Yes, a majority of citizens in the U.S. are Christian and many of the founders of the United States were Christian, but Christians are not granted a special status by the constitution which defines the United States. In fact, any special treatment that a citizen of the United States would try to claim for themselves because of their Christian or other religious affiliation is explicitly prohibited by the United States.

iQGuy wrote:
--------------------------------------------------
As for the facts of history:
--------------------------------------------------
"... the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"

-Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, written during the administration of George Washington, signed by President John Adams, and ratified unanimously by the United States Senate.

Does it get any clearer than that? *unanimous*

**********************************************

The Canadien wrote:"You guys are such out and out liars. You twist words and leave out a huge deal of quotes that support the religious views of the founding fathers.

First of all, the Treaty of Tripoli said "the government" was not founded on the Christian religion. They did NOT state this wasn't a country founded on Christian principles."

**********************************************

Nice. baseless name calling. If I have asserted something as true that is not true, then blast away with the liar accusations. Until then, you're name-calling is just mindless slander.

Yes, the country of the United States is a government. When referring to the "United States" country, government, and nation are interchangeable. It's meaningless to state that you're a citizen of a country unless by that you mean to say that you're qualified to receive the protections and benefits of the government.

Yes, a majority of citizens in the U.S. are Christian and many of the founders of the United States were Christian and many of them were no doubt informed by their Christian principles. But the United States (the nation, the country, the government) is defined by its constitution. Nowhere in the United States Constitution are there any laws that could be uniquely characterized as Christian, nor are there any respects paid to Jesus, Christian principles as such, or any other higher authority.

Christians are not granted a special status in the United States. In fact, any special treatment that a citizen of the United States would try to claim for themselves because of their Christian or other religious affiliation is explicitly prohibited in the United States (the nation, the country, the government).

What is special about the United States (the nation, the country, the government), and unique at the time of its founding, was that it was a country defined by laws, not people. In other words, the United States government is defined by a constitution - not by an authority (religious, personal, or otherwise) which is held above the laws of that constitution. No Pope, no king, no class of citizens are above the law of the land.

Ever hear of a psychological term called "projecting"? It refers to the constant attribution of one's own negative qualities to others, and it's indicative of a mild personality disorder. Miss Schlussel has it in spades. She accuses religious non-believers of namecalling, hate-mongering, extremism, bigotry, vile attacks and stereotyping . . . all qualities which she herself unremittingly displays towards them.

One thing that strikes me, both in Miss Schlussel's comments and those who share her views, is the venom-filled rabidity with which they invariably respond whenever one expresses denial of their delusional belief in their imaginary friend God. Just look at the tone of the messages here in relation to whether the posters are religious or non-religious. Such zealotry always betrays a fundamental insecurity at the core of one's religious beliefs.

But I did find the comment about all atheists becoming future Muslim extremists hilarous. I didn't think Miss Schlussel could top for sheer idiocy the "I'm Jewish but I recognize that this is a Christian nation" gem on the Zahn program, but I think she may have outdid herself. Mangling the "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" aphorism was also a classic. This woman is actually a member of MENSA? I guess in these politically correct times, even they have to have their token mentally challenged individual.

What would our founding fathers say?

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
Thomas Jefferson

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."
Thomas Paine

"Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions."
George Washington

"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790

"To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatical."
George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

"... the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"
-Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, written during the administration of George Washington, signed by President John Adams, and ratified unanimously by the United States Senate.

As far as this article goes, I never saw any mention that Atheists were supposed to come over here. I read a quote of yours somewhere and was so shocked by it's ignorance that I did a search for you to see what other ignorant garbage was being said about atheists. No one told me to find you. No one posted a direct link here.

My mom is an amazing woman. She is also a Christian. I love her dearly and never ever attack her beliefs. It is the hate and ignorance coming from your mouth that give loving, caring Christians like my mother a bad name. It's a very sad thing to see. I hope that you can find a way, possibly through prayer and self-reflection, to examine your message of hate.

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