April 18, 2007, - 11:10 am

2nd Amendment Rights on Campus Would Have Saved Lives

By Debbie Schlussel
My friend, Dr. Aaron Lerner of the invaluable IMRA (Institute for Middle East Research and Analysis), writes:

Dear Debbie,
I wanted to point out that if the gun laws in the USA were like they are here that this incident would not have taken place.
To qualify for a license you have to take a course and given the description of how this kid was behaving in class I find it hard to believe he would have succeeded in appearing normal through all the sessions.

virginiatech.jpgglock.jpg

Best regards,
Aaron

Exactly.
David Kopel of the Independence Institute agrees, and mentions Israel in his op-ed piece in today’s Wall Street Journal, “Gun Free Zones,” by . He discusses how absolute gun control on campuses leads to more deaths. Some excerpts:

The bucolic campus of Virginia Tech, in Blacksburg, Va., would seem to have little in common with the Trolley Square shopping mall in Salt Lake City. Yet both share an important characteristic, common to the site of almost every other notorious mass murder in recent years: They are “gun-free zones.” . . .
In many states there are certain places, especially schools, set aside as off-limits for guns. In Virginia, universities aren’t “gun-free zones” by statute, but college officials are allowed to impose anti-gun rules. The result is that mass murderers know where they can commit their crimes. . . .
Last year the Virginia legislature defeated a bill that would have ended the “gun-free zones” in Virginia’s public universities. At the time, a Virginia Tech associate vice president praised the General Assembly’s action “because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.” In an August 2006 editorial for the Roanoke Times, he declared: “Guns don’t belong in classrooms. They never will. Virginia Tech has a very sound policy preventing same.”
Actually, Virginia Tech’s policy only made the killer safer, for it was only the law-abiding victims, and not the criminal, who were prevented from having guns. Virginia Tech’s policy bans all guns on campus (except for police and the university’s own security guards); even faculty members are prohibited from keeping guns in their cars.
Israel uses armed teachers as part of a successful program to deter terrorist attacks on schools. Buddhist teachers in southern Thailand are following the Israeli example, because of Islamist terrorism. . . .
The founder of the University of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson, understood the harms resulting from the type of policy created at Virginia Tech. In his “Commonplace Book,” Jefferson copied a passage from Cesare Beccaria, the founder of criminology, which was as true on Monday as it always has been:
“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

Time to let college students, faculty, and employees–most of whom are adults and of legal age to keep and bear arms–have the same rights to protect themselves on campus as they do off-campus.

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36 Responses

Surely you can’t be serious. You would like to see all students and teachers at campuses throughout the US carry concealed firearms, or at least all the ones that wish to? You can’t clearly see the massive disaster that would lead to? This tragedy would pale in comparison to the loss of life that would likely occur due to accidental firings or temporary student conflicts alone! How could escalation of an existing problem, the easy availability of firearms, possibly result in more overall safety? This was an exceptionally alarming incident, tragic of course, which has understandably raised people’s emotions and fear. But, not to diminish the tragedy at all, in terms of the overall population of all the campuses in the US the number of victims is a small percentage. A number which would certainly be outweighed by the loss of life if campuses were made wide open to firearm possession.

clarkslick on April 18, 2007 at 12:16 pm

As i pointed out in my blog today [all y'all limbaughnistas can hit my SN...it links to it], almost ALL the so-called liberals and scourge to the Amerikkklan way of life are coming from college campuses…so OBVIOUSLY THEY are the gun control nuts.
Bill O’Reilly WAS RIGHT for a change…Virginia has the most lax gun laws in the nation!!!
Since my gun-running days are almost twenty years in the past, Virginia WAS the palce i used to go to keep the ‘hood armed and dangerous. WE had the NYPD outgunned back in the days…and i notice y’all don’t really WANT to extend that Second Amendment right to people of colour, and for good reason too…WE have no qualms about busting a cap in somebody’s ass.

EminemsRevenge on April 18, 2007 at 12:20 pm

What an ignorant comment…something tells me that your role playing.

the_don on April 18, 2007 at 12:38 pm

I disagree. First of all, Israel has NO 2nd ammendment. In spite of the fact that a lot of Israelis pack heat, their firearm ownership laws are MORE stringent than ours. The NRA would not like Israel’s gun laws even though they oftentimes laud Israel’s gunpacking society.
If you were to say: “Had our handgun purchasing and ownership laws modeled Israel’s this wouldn’t have happened”, I’d agree with you. But once you cite the 2nd Ammendment of the US Constitution to compare against Israel’s laws, you’re comparing apples and oranges.
Every Israreli policeman, borderguard, shin bet rep etc. has told me that handgun ownership rights in Israel are NOT entrenched like they are in America under the 2nd Ammendment of the U.S. Constitution. Then they proudly tell me that they have more heat-packing citizens per capita than the US.

There is NO Santa Claus on April 18, 2007 at 12:39 pm

There is an illogicality in the position that mass killings (or really, most killings) could be avoided if everyone were free to carry arms. The safer approach would be complete gun confiscation. No guns, no gun crimes. Simple, right? Sure, some would be smuggled in, but guns are unlike drugs, they are bulkier, usually metal, easier to detect. If guns were completly forbidden in the US to civilians, and if guns could not be manufactured or imported, there would surely be a dramatic fall in gun-related crimes.

Seymour Paine on April 18, 2007 at 12:43 pm

ClarkSlick,
Your comments do not make sense.
Studies and statistics have proven that violence and crime is reduced dramatically when concealed weapons are available to legally licensed owners.
Criminals are afraid to brandish their weapons when they know that they will face armed resistance.
There is absolutely no way to prevent everyone from having a gun. All the strict gun laws result in is that only the criminals have guns.
The correct way to control guns is to allow legal concealed weapons which are licensed to those that have undergone a careful review and licensing process. This would have stopped the current massacre at a much earlier point.

Facts of Life on April 18, 2007 at 12:49 pm

If we do confiscate all the “guns” I think mass murderers and violent criminals alike will just switch to other deadly weapons or means.

the_don on April 18, 2007 at 12:51 pm

On one hand a criminal is 90% less likely to rob,rape,assault someone who is packing “heat”. On the other hand we need to make guns less accessible to the “Wrong” hands. There needs to be a middle ground in this gun control issue.

the_don on April 18, 2007 at 1:01 pm

If there is a demand there will be a supply. Those ships containers a pretty big pelnty of room for some guns along with the drugs. Besides ever hear of a zip gun? its a radio antenna and a piece of wood.

colin5656 on April 18, 2007 at 1:04 pm

How soon we forget. How many people remember this?
In 2002, a Nigerian student distraught over his grades, killed three people at the Appalachian School of Law in VIRGINIA!!! The attacker was subdued by two fellow students with their OWN PERSONNEL HANDGUNS!
They stopped this lunatic BEFORE he could KILL 33 more!
http://timlambert.org/guns/appalachian/nd/tackle/gun/use/128.html
Guns don’t kill people, lunatics who don’t care about life kill people.

the time is now on April 18, 2007 at 1:12 pm

Nice discussion, but rambling. Mr. Revenge has pointed out that those who want guns will find the means to get them. Make them illegal and only the bad guys will have them. How does that help anything?
If you think a fully armed college campus is the answer then why not go all the way and strap the guns on to an external gun belt. Much faster to draw and a clear signal that the populace is armed and ready. Not a good answer, either.
This VT whack job was ignored for years by the authorities when there was opportunity to accomplish something. What good is all that academia when you can’t get through to those most obvious in need?
Two major errors to learn from:
(1) When you have a killing take place, lock the situation down, don’t worry the publicity, and be certain the all clear can be sounded before the situation is returned to normal. This did not happen.
(2) When you have a screwball walking around, advertising his instability, do something of real value and not shrug it off as “not my problem,” especially when you are the defacto person in charge of security. That just happens to be the VT President and the VT Chief of Police.
So let’s turn it over to a committee to white wash it away, once again.
I would not send my child to VT until they do something responsible and intelligent. That, unfortunately is now their obligation. It is the least they can do.

Happiness Pursuer on April 18, 2007 at 1:12 pm

Facts of Life, the_don, well said. The second ammendment is very short, very sweet. “shall not be abridged”. The founders had plenty of opportunity to add “except for any community that wishes to abridge the right” or “except for criminals, slaves, indians, funny thinking people or New York city dwellers”. The purpose was to prevent tyranny, to provide a solution for keeping the people in control of government. Moral behavior, and personal responsibility are essential in an armed society. Cho failed to live up to that. It was his failure alone. Not the NRA, not society, not video games or too few gun control laws. IMHO, I think every gun-control law ever written is unconstitutional. Could it be the authors of the second ammendment meant exactly what they wrote, without any restriction? Personally,I would be proud to stand beside an armed American criminal, or an armed and politically INcorrect New Yorker, when another Cho, society, or the government, gets that far out of control.

jeebie on April 18, 2007 at 1:24 pm

You should scroll down to http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/04/i_called_it_ros.html#comments HAPPINESS PURSUER…SOCIETY is becoming almost as violent as it was during Old Testament times…glad i’m packing:)

EminemsRevenge on April 18, 2007 at 1:40 pm

I am keeping an open mind on carrying concealed weapons in Virginia, and in particular on Virginia College Campi.
Convince how well this would work at a Va Tech – UVA football game. Basketball game? Concert? Or, other large event?
50,000 people in the stands, half of which might be ‘packing.’ It would not be difficult to accept that some of them will have an extra clip, or two. NCAA sanctioned events do not serve alchohol, but there is that pre-game tailgate party where you could certainly lower your inhibitions and threshold for good conduct.
I pity the Referee who makes an apparently bad call. Then again, the Referee will be packing, too. He’s in Virginia and has the right to defend himself.
Wasn’t it in Philly were the fans threw snowballs/ batteries(?) at Santa Claus? Yes, Virginia is not Philly, but agressive nature is aroused at sporting events. I think snowballs were thrown at Giants Stadium, too. Violent behaviour does happen at sports events. Pistons – Pacers anyone?
Go ahead, convince me that carrying concealed weapons is a good thing. Listen, I do not have the answer. But, I do know a bad idea when I hear one. Give me something I can get behind and support.

zyzzyg on April 18, 2007 at 1:54 pm

DS, what makes you think you might get this part right?

jerryvet on April 18, 2007 at 2:04 pm

zyzzyg,
What about the illegal weapons that are currently being deployed by their owners at all these events? What if one of those guys started shooting with no one to stop him?

Facts of Life on April 18, 2007 at 2:07 pm

JerryVet,
When are you going to wake up? How many times have events not been called terror when they really were?
– Lax July 4th shooting
– Seattle muslim murders
– NC Taheri mowing down innocent people with his SUV
– etc., etc., etc.
We have every right to assume the worst until proven otherwise. The MSM and the powers that be try to hide the truth about most events.

Facts of Life on April 18, 2007 at 2:10 pm

Mr. Revenge, I don’t see anyone talking to burning bushes, lately, but except for “texting” not too much has changed in the past 5000 years.
Agree, don’t leave home without one (or two). To be used, preferably, as a last resort. As far as students packing- that is silly. That invites hysteria. Look at all the hysteria here and we are just calmly talking.
If the creep at VT had forced himself to speak out, maybe he could have begun to overcome his handicaps. I don’t buy into bi-polar, etc. excuses. You can’t solve your chemcical imbalance problems alone, but you’ve got to at least try hard. Writing crap is not trying hard, it is only wallowing in the problem. His buddies could have tried harder, too.
No one succeeded there. Too many paid the penalty.

Happiness Pursuer on April 18, 2007 at 2:14 pm

Facts – enlighten me. Seriously, why do the MSM and the powers (who are they, exactly?) want to hide the truth? My point, by the way, was that even with time, she was wrong on almost everything. When I’m wrong several times in a row on a subject, I begin to wonder if I know what I’m talking about.

jerryvet on April 18, 2007 at 2:17 pm

JerryVet,
The MSM has a Leftist agenda and can’t allow the public to believe that there is a real terror threat. Since their goals of putting down America are aligned with the Islamofascists, they can’t allow anything to be seen as Islamofascist aggression against the American public.
The powers that be (the current government lead by President Bush) don’t adequately perceive the nature of the Islamic agenda and threat to our freedom and existence. They wish to deny any terrorist event in accordance with this view, they don’t want to appear out of control and they don’t want the public at large to unilateraly take action against the Muslim public.

Facts of Life on April 18, 2007 at 2:34 pm

I suppose the gun control freaks would rather see you shot defensless that for you to shoot out of self-defense. In other words, they want to control who can posses a gun ( which are the criminals who they defend anyways) and who can’t ( which is the average law abiding sane American who values his/her life whom the liberals detest with a burning passion). Their agenda behind gun control is to deny your right to defend yourself from would be perpetrators just as they try to do with our combatants in Iraq by undermining their efforts to defend and protect our nation. Legislating gun control almost equates to comminting suicide inadvertently. We cannot sit by and let their agenda prevail. We must put a cease to this insanity for once and for all.
Gun Control = Criminal Rights

Jew Chick on April 18, 2007 at 2:41 pm

Facts of Life,
I closed with this statement, “Go ahead, convince me that carrying concealed weapons is a good thing. Listen, I do not have the answer. But, I do know a bad idea when I hear one. Give me something I can get behind and support.”
Though you did not answer my questions or address the scenario with a comment, I will respond fully to you.
How do you know that “illegal weapons are currently being deployed by their owners at all these events”? I am however prepared to stipulate that there MIGHT be individuals carrying concealed weapons, legal and illegal, at these events.
However, at most large gatherings (sports, concerts, etc.) individuals are searched before being allowed to enter. This is a reality enforced since 9/11, maybe even before then. Especially, when it comes to guns. Should concealed carry become the norm, and wide spread, the authorities could not confiscate the weapons, or prevent you from entering the facility.
“What if one of those guys started shooting with no one to stop him?” I don’t know, and that is why I asked, “Give me something I can get behind and support.”
Got any ideas that would not potentially result in hundreds of people in a panic shooting at hundreds of other people in panic over a misunderstanding and clouded in confusion? Lest we forget the Ref who made a bad call and is at risk of getting shot?
Your questions, asked and answered. Mine?
Zyzzyg

zyzzyg on April 18, 2007 at 4:01 pm

Dear Retarded Poo-Throwing Monkey,
Nice hatred on your blog, how tiny-brained of you. I’d just like to point out to you that bloggers are equal targets to college students. Feel free to leave your home address posted on this blog, if only to help us discover who really loves to arm bears, or shoot people (whichever is more fun).
Or, just keep hanging out at the local Starbucks with your laptop and your weird hairdo. Someday soon, someone’ll step up and clear that chaff as well.
Happy Hunting!

wbrproductions on April 18, 2007 at 4:35 pm

“There is an illogicality in the position that mass killings (or really, most killings) could be avoided if everyone were free to carry arms. The safer approach would be complete gun confiscation. No guns, no gun crimes. Simple, right? Sure, some would be smuggled in, but guns are unlike drugs, they are bulkier, usually metal, easier to detect. If guns were completly forbidden in the US to civilians, and if guns could not be manufactured or imported, there would surely be a dramatic fall in gun-related crimes.”
I’d much rather have the government lock us all in rooms and provide us with our food and oxygen. That would be safest of all. Maybe they could also read us a bedtime story and wipe our little winkies when needed. The concepts and ideals of the American Constitution are lost on many immigrants and most anybody born after about 1975 or so. Our public schools (socialist indoctrination centers) have worked all too well. The nanny state is what most want and what most deserve. Just keep your hands off my God given rights. UNALIENABLE RIGHTS! Do they even teach that at school anymore?

AlturaCt on April 18, 2007 at 5:25 pm

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws (the authorities–who have proven time and again they can NOT be trusted) will have them.

Robert on April 18, 2007 at 5:49 pm

zyzzyg,
You said
“Got any ideas that would not potentially result in hundreds of people in a panic shooting at hundreds of other people in panic over a misunderstanding and clouded in confusion? Lest we forget the Ref who made a bad call and is at risk of getting shot?”
This is a very unrealistic scenario. There are many places where the populace has weapons and this kind of activity has never been reported.
Additionally, any individual that would try to shoot the referee would probably be overpowered by the majority of law abiding gun owners.
The reality is that a number of potential mass murders have been stopped by legal weapons.
Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit wrote “In fact, some mass shootings have been stopped by armed citizens. Though press accounts downplayed it, the 2002 shooting at Appalachian Law School was stopped when a student retrieved a gun from his car and confronted the shooter. Likewise, Pearl, Miss., school shooter Luke Woodham was stopped when the school’s vice principal took a .45 fromhis truck and ran to the scene. In February’s Utah mall shooting, it was an off-duty police officer who happened to be on the scene and carrying a gun.”
Another argument against disarming the public is the reality of terrorists here in America just itching for the opportunity to commit mass murder.
The other so called solution is a fiction. New York city has the most restrictive gun laws on record and there are still plenty of criminals with weapons.
Besides trusting in the Lord, arming the righteous is our best defense.

Facts of Life on April 18, 2007 at 7:10 pm

BLACKSBURG, Virginia (CNN) — Cho Seung-Hui said Monday’s massacre on the Virginia Tech campus could have been avoided and said “you forced me into a corner,” in a videotaped message he mailed to NBC News.
NBC News reported that Cho mailed the package at 9:01 a.m. Monday — during the two hours between the shootings at the West Ambler Johnston Hall dormitory and the shootings at Norris Hall.
“You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today,” Cho said in one of the videos that aired Wednesday night on NBC. “But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off.”
In another video broadcast on NBC, Cho told the camera “When the time came I did it, I had to.”
Cho spoke about the shootings in the past tense, but it is unclear when the video messages were recorded.
The package included an 1,800 word statement described as “a manifesto” and 23 QuickTime videos showing Cho Seung-Hui talking to the camera and discussing religion and his hatred of the wealthy, MSNBC.com reported.
It also included several photographs of Cho posing and pointing handguns at the camera.
At least one photograph showed Cho pointing a pistol at his head. Another showed Cho holding a knife to his throat.
The package was sent by overnight mail, but did not arrive until Wednesday because the address and Zip code were wrong.
“This may be a very new critical component of this investigation,” State Police Col. Steve Flaherty said.
When the network received the package, it immediately notified authorities and the original documents were sent to the FBI for analysis, Flaherty said.
CNN also learned Wednesday that in 2005 Cho was declared mentally ill by a Virginia special justice, who declared he was “an imminent danger” to himself, a court document states.
A temporary detention order from General District Court in the commonwealth of Virginia said Cho “presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness.”
A box indicating that the subject “Presents an imminent danger to others as a result of mental illness” was not checked.
In another part of the form, Cho was described as “mentally ill and in need of hospitalization, and presents an imminent danger to self or others as a result of mental illness, or is so seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self, and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment.”
A handwritten section of the form describes Cho. “Affect is flat and mood is depressed,” said the order, which was signed December 14 by Special Justice Paul M. Barnett. “He denies suicidal ideation. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder. His insight and judgment are normal.”
Student complaints
Police first investigated Cho in November 2005 after a student complained about him calling her and contacting her in person, university police Chief Wendell Flinchum said. (Watch how police learned of Cho’s troubles Video)
Cho was sent to the university’s Office of Judicial Affairs, which handled the complaint, the outcome of which is confidential, university officials said.
“The student declined to press charges and referred to Cho’s contact with her as annoying,” Flinchum said of the November investigation.
Police investigated him again the next month when a female student complained about instant messages Cho sent her, Flinchum said.
“Again, no threat was made against that student. However, she made a complaint to the Virginia Tech Police Department and asked that Cho have no further contact with her,” the chief said.
After police spoke to Cho, they received a call from a student concerned that he might be suicidal.
Officers spoke to Cho “at length” then asked him to see a counselor. He agreed to be evaluated by Access Services, an independent mental health facility in Blacksburg, the chief said.
“A temporary detention order was obtained and Cho was taken to a mental health facility” on December 13, 2005, he said.
A student asking to be identified only as Andy said he was the one who told police that Cho was suicidal. Police “took [Cho] away to the counseling center for a night or two,” said the student, who used to room with Cho. (Watch Cho’s roommates describe his ‘crazy’ behavior Video)
Authorities said they received no more complaints about Cho before the shootings, Flinchum said.
The university and its police continue to defend themselves against students’ complaints that they weren’t adequately warned about Cho — even after two people were killed in a dormitory early Monday morning. (Watch how large universities protect students Video)
Though police have linked a gun used in Norris Hall — where 31 people, including Cho, died — they have yet to say he is officially accused of the first shootings. (Learn more about those killed in the rampage)
Professor recalls ‘mean streak’
As tales of Cho’s worrisome behavior continued to surface Wednesday, a renowned poet and author who taught the 23-year-old gunman called the notion that he was troubled “crap” and said he was “mean.”
Nikki Giovanni said she immediately suspected Cho when she got word of the shootings. (Watch Giovanni declare at a Tuesday convocation, ‘We are Virginia Tech’ Video)
“I knew when it happened that that’s probably who it was,” Giovanni said, referring to her former pupil. “I would have been shocked if it wasn’t.”
Cho’s poetry was so intimidating — and his behavior so menacing — that Giovanni had him removed from her class in the fall of 2005, she said. Giovanni said the final straw came when two of her students quit attending her poetry sessions because of Cho.
“I was trying to find out, what am I doing wrong here?” Giovanni recalled thinking, but the students later explained, “He’s taking photographs of us. We don’t know what he’s doing.” (Classmates called Cho ‘question mark kid’)
Giovanni went to the department’s then-chairwoman, Lucinda Roy, and told her, “I was willing to resign before I was going to continue with him.” Roy took Cho out of Giovanni’s class.
“I know we’re talking about a troubled youngster and crap like that, but troubled youngsters get drunk and jump off buildings; troubled youngsters drink and drive,” Giovanni said. “I’ve taught troubled youngsters. I’ve taught crazy people. It was the meanness that bothered me. It was a really mean streak.” (Watch how the cause of Cho’s behavior could have been physical Video)
Roy, who taught Cho one-on-one after removing him from Giovanni’s class, recalled Cho exhibiting a palpable anger and secretly taking photographs of other students while holding the camera under his desk. (Watch the professor tell how her student frightened her Video)
His writings were so disturbing, she said, that she went to the police and university administrators for help.
“The threats seemed to be underneath the surface,” she said. “They were not explicit and that was the difficulty the police had.”
Ian MacFarlane, who had class with Cho, said two plays written by Cho were so “twisted” that McFarlane and other students openly pondered “whether he could be a school shooter.” (Read MacFarlane’s blog and the two playsexternal link)
University stands by handling of shooting
Though two professors, Cho’s former roommates and a classmate and police all recall Cho behaving in a disturbing manner, officials said there was nothing criminal about his demeanor.
The gun shop owner who sold him the Glock 9 mm, one of the guns used at Norris Hall, said Cho easily passed a background check last month before buying the weapon. (Watch dealer recount selling weapon to Cho Video)
Asked about Roy’s concerns that Cho was writing troubling plays and poems in his classes, Flinchum said no official report was filed.
“These course assignments were for a creative writing course and the students were encouraged to be imaginative and artistic,” the chief said. “The writings did not express any threatening intentions or allude to criminal activity. No criminal violation had taken place.”
Flinchum’s remarks were the latest in the university’s defense, not only of its handling of situations that arose before the shootings, but also of how it handled situations in the immediate aftermath of the shooting at West Ambler Johnston dorm.
The recurring question: Why weren’t students warned or the campus locked down before Cho was able to walk into Norris Hall more than two hours later and exact the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history? (Watch how Virginia Tech students will never forget Monday’s massacre Video)
Flinchum said Wednesday that details gleaned from the investigation at the dorm led to a decision among university officials and police that the campus did not need to be locked down.
“There are a lot of details we were providing to the administration and a decision was made based on that information,” the chief said.
University President Charles Steger has said police believed the incident was “a domestic fight, perhaps a murder-suicide” that was contained to one dorm room.
Police cordoned off the 895-student dorm and all residents were told about the shooting as police looked for witnesses, Steger said.
“I don’t think anyone could have predicted that another event was going to take place two hours later,” Steger said.
Authorities are still investigating whether Cho had any accomplices in planning or executing Monday’s rampage.

the_don on April 18, 2007 at 7:43 pm

EminemsRevenge, “…and i notice y’all don’t really WANT to extend that Second Amendment right to people of colour, and for good reason too…WE have no qualms about busting a cap in somebody’s ass.”
Thanks, Debbie.
Thank you for allowing one of your posters, EminemsRevenge, threaten to shoot people on your site here, along with policemen in another thread.
As much as I admire you, that is just way too much any time and especially now to read that here.

The_Man on April 18, 2007 at 9:20 pm

Facts of Life,
The scenario is hardly unlikely, should concealed carry become the norm. Why wouldn’t you carry if you had the right to do so? Why wouldn’t take your gun to the stadium? Arena? Concert? Class?
Absolutely, the cases you referenced have bearing on this discussion. However, each involved a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL rising to the challenge with exact knowledge as to what is going on. The scenario I suggested has MANY INDIVIDUALS rising to the challenge only thinking they know what is going on. Think brawl. Think mob mentality. Who’s the good guy? Who’s the bad guy?
Yes, I was exaggerating for effect and being a tad sarcastic about the Referee. As far as scenarios go, reconstruct what happened at Vtech adding that there were armed students in the four classrooms.
Hearing the first shots, certainly the armed students would investigate. Seeing an individual standing there (in the hall, or in the classroom) holding a gun standing over someone who has been shot. What do you do? This is a dillema that Police confront and they are trained to deal with it. Sometimes they make the right choice, sometimes they make the wrong choice. Whatever choice you make, you will have to do it in a split second.
A gunman standing over a bleeding body. What do you do? Shoot the gunman? All you know is that you have a gun and are protecting yourself and your classmates. Do you shoot him?
What if the gunman standing over the bleeding body is another student who was carrying a concealed weapon and had just taken out the perp? You have a split second to decide what to do. You did not see the original incident so all you really know is that there were shots, there’s a gunman, a dead body and now the gunman looks toward you. What do you do? Does the gunmen know that you are, or are not, part of what this idiot has tried to do?
Now that is only two of the four classrooms. There are concealed weapons carrying students in the other two rooms and they see you draw down on the guy. All they know is that they have guns and want to protect their fellow classmates. Have you fired yet? If you have, have the others determined that you are, or not the perp? Do they then shoot you?
Are people running around screaming and in a panic. Who is shooting at who? What does anyone know, and when do the know it to make a decision in that split second?
Yeah, I know lots questions and very few answers. There is no way to predict what will, or will not, happen. How events will unfold. But, having that many guns, in the hands of that many people, having limited accurate information is a disaster waiting to happen.
For the record, I don’t accept taking guns away either.
As for arming the righteous, I suppose that is a good idea until they go off the deep end.
Zyzzyg

zyzzyg on April 19, 2007 at 10:09 am

Maybe The_Man should rethink his SN…The_GirlieMan is more appropriate, or maybe Bitch_boy!!!
“Thank you for allowing one of your posters, EminemsRevenge, threaten to shoot people on your site here, along with policemen in another thread”
Can i get a NIGGA PLEASE on that?
Go fish for Debbie’s RIF comment, or take a course in reading COMPREHENSION…unlike y’all internet gangstas who GET TOUGH by tping, i had to walk the streets of Far Rockaway, south Jamaica, Baisley Park, Bed-Stuyt and Harlem coming up, places where beef is settled with bullets…where hesitation gets you a funeral plot.
THREATENING SHEEPLE ON THE INTERNET??? That like arguing with a vending machine when it steals your dollar. Unlike y’all, I DON’T LIVE HERE…i just come here as if going to a bar, shoot the breeze and pop some bullshit, then go out into the REAL WORLD…

EminemsRevenge on April 19, 2007 at 10:57 am

Zyzzyg,
“The scenario is hardly unlikely, should concealed carry become the norm. Why wouldn’t you carry if you had the right to do so? Why wouldn’t take your gun to the stadium? Arena? Concert? Class? ”
This scenario is very common. What I meant was unlikely is the Dodge City shootout that you fear. In all the places that concealed weapons are allowed with all the available guns and emotions running high, no shootout has ever been reported.
The legal gunowners don’t use their guns recklessly and they are not interested in getting into a shootout. Additionally, they will try to quell any ongoing violence so things are more peaceful and not otherwise.
“Hearing the first shots, certainly the armed students would investigate. Seeing an individual standing there (in the hall, or in the classroom) holding a gun standing over someone who has been shot. What do you do? This is a dillema that Police confront and they are trained to deal with it. Sometimes they make the right choice, sometimes they make the wrong choice. Whatever choice you make, you will have to do it in a split second.”
They would likely call out a challenge and take cover. If the response is gunfire, only then would they open up in return.
“A gunman standing over a bleeding body. What do you do? Shoot the gunman? All you know is that you have a gun and are protecting yourself and your classmates. Do you shoot him?”
You challenge the person from a safe position and determine the response. In the Vtech case, there would have been no question as there wasn’t in the Utah mall.
“Now that is only two of the four classrooms. There are concealed weapons carrying students in the other two rooms and they see you draw down on the guy. All they know is that they have guns and want to protect their fellow classmates. Have you fired yet? If you have, have the others determined that you are, or not the perp? Do they then shoot you?”
I’ve already responded above but even if there are some mistakes, it would be far less deadly than what occured.
“Yeah, I know lots questions and very few answers. There is no way to predict what will, or will not, happen. How events will unfold. But, having that many guns, in the hands of that many people, having limited accurate information is a disaster waiting to happen.”
As I noted above, the societies that have guns have faced these situations and the nightmare scenarios that you are worried about haven’t happened.

Facts of Life on April 19, 2007 at 1:21 pm

Facts of Life,
You are far more trusting of your fellow man than I am. Yes, I am cynical. And, I do appreciate the thoughful and sincere dialogue that we are having.
You said, “In all the places that concealed weapons are allowed with all the available guns and emotions running high, no shootout has ever been reported.”
Please, tell me where these PLACES are? Do any of them include a rowdy sports arena? Stadium? Concert Hall?
You said, “They would likely call out a challenge and take cover. If the response is gunfire, only then would they open up in return.”
Real world examples exist of trained Police Officers making an error in a split second, and you think it likely that a 21 year old will have the prescence of mind to do all you suggest? BTW, that split second error has cost the police officer their life, as well as the perp.
You said, “The legal gunowners don’t use their guns recklessly and they are not interested in getting into a shootout.”
Cho was a legal gunowner. Certainly crazy, having gone off the deep end. But, he was a legal gun owner. I wonder how many like him are out there? I’ve seen fender benders spiral out of control. Two otherwise normal and sane inviduals fly off the handle. What if each was carrying concealed weapons? Sorry, there is an absolute you suggested. “Legal gunowners don’t use their guns recklessly and they are not interested in getting into a shootout.”
You said, “As I noted above, the societies that have guns have faced these situations and the nightmare scenarios that you are worried about haven’t happened.”
The response here is common sense, just because it hasn’t happened does not mean it won’t in the future. Who thought there would be truck bombs in America. But, now all Government facilities (and some private) are being built back off the street and behind bollards. Yes, we thought people would highjack airplanes, but we did not think they would then fly them into buildings. It is alway better to plan for the worst, and hope for the best. I’ll say one more thing in response to ‘nightmare scenarios’ and that is vigilantes and lynch mobs. Yes, not a recent occurrence, but it has happened. People get stupid. Mobs are even stupider. Scared, crazed, dazed and confused people are dangerous.
What I am suggesting is the ‘Law of Unintended Consequences.’
I hope that the scenario I suggested will never happen. Likely or not, that is what ‘gaming’ is all about. Recall I suggested a scenario and speculated what would happen, and admitted I was not sure exactly what would happen. If “A” is done, will it be followed by “B”? “C”? Or, “Q”? Is there the potential for wildly improbable “STUVW”? Just examine the possibilities.
There are few absolute gaurantees in life except for death and taxes and if other potential outcomes exist besides what you suggest, the calm thoughtful actions of a 21 year old under fire from who knows who, then yeah, expand conceal carry to college campi, sports arena, and concert halls.
And, remember, guns don’t kill people. People kill people.
Again, with great respect to you from me for having this civil conversation.
zyzzyg

zyzzyg on April 19, 2007 at 3:27 pm

No one wants to admit how much law abiding citizens well trained have saved lives with their guns. It is sad that in an education institute that they are SO AFRAID of LEARNING how to PROTECT themselves with a gun. Sure it takes some training to feel ok with it..but lord….this is a university where education should calm fear. No one should be afraid to learn how to shoot a gun. After all, isn’t knowledge power? Or is that only if it comes from the brain ONLY?
I guess if people want to rely on blockading doors and turning over their desks is the way to go to get away from a shooter, I can’t really dissuade you from that moonbat sitting duck type thinking.

Highrise on April 20, 2007 at 1:20 am

April 18, 2007
2nd Amendment Rights on Campus Would Have Saved Lives
For U.S. citizens. Not Seung-Hui Cho

KOAJaps on April 21, 2007 at 2:28 pm

It is a myth that American criminals are the only criminals with guns. The same day as VTech, the mayor of Nagasaki Japan was shot dead. Last I read there were gangs preying on rural areas of England and it is against the law for the Brits to defend themselves even in their own homes. Gangs and criminals in other countries are well armed.
Capital gun crime rises by 50 per cent in Great Britain and with all of those SURVEILLANCE cameras yet:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article340224.ece
It’s like this mostly all around the world, some examples here:
In this article about Nigerian child kidnappings, notice that the only person who was able to stop the gang from kidnapping his daughter was a cop when he brandished his gun: The rest of them are sitting ducks. Nigeria has strict gun control:
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=4800
WARNING this is a graphic photo, Swedish rape waves in Europe and Rape wave Sweden
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12/immigrant-rape-wave-in-sweden.html
Steep rise in crime in Sweden:
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/09/sweden-steep-rise-in-crime.html
Three gun crimes a day in Sweden
http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=2032

mennyiben on April 21, 2007 at 2:56 pm

I was watching news on the French tv channel via satellite, the news from Switzerland a few months ago was reporting on a gun show reporting how the Swiss are avid gun sportsmen/women. Guess what, it looked just like an American gun show.
http://www.theblessingsofliberty.com/articles/article11.html

mennyiben on April 21, 2007 at 3:03 pm

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