January 8, 2010, - 3:27 pm

About the Egyptian Muslim Shooting on Coptic Christmas (Why I Don’t Care)

By Debbie Schlussel

****  SCROLL DOWN FOR UPDATE  ****

A couple of days ago, Egyptian Muslims did a drive-by shooting of Coptic Christians in Nag Hammadi, Egypt, who were celebrating Coptic Christmas.  Seven were killed (including a Muslim security guard), and nine were wounded.  The story is tragic and instructive in the absolute intolerance of Muslims for Christians in Muslim nations (and non-Muslim ones).

popeshenouda

Coptic Pope Shenouda III: His Anti-Semitic Sermons Rival Those of Muslim Clerics

That said, I deliberately, heretofore, chose to ignore it.  Several readers–including some Copts–asked me why I didn’t write about it.  Well, as I’ve noted before, it’s an unfortunate but true fact that most Christians in the Middle East sided with Muslims against the Jews (not just against the Israelis).  And among the most viciously anti-Semitic Christians in the Mid-East are the Copts.  At ten percent of the Egyptian population, they historically not only supported Egypt against the Jews and Israel, but the Copts participated in Egyptian Muslim pogroms against Jews, supported the expulsion of nearly the entire Jewish Community of Egypt, and even participated in looting and seizing Jewish property before and after the expulsion was complete.  And, although they are mostly found in Egypt, in every other Middle Eastern nation in which they have a small presence, Copts have consistently participated in persecuting the Jews.  It’s not by accident.  They are simply following the openly anti-Semitic teachings of Coptic Pope Shenouda III.

As I noted on Christmas Eve, despite the hatred and persecution of Christians by Muslims, the Christians in the Middle East–with the exception of some factions of Maronite Christians in Lebanon–bet against Israel and the Jews.  And they picked the wrong side.

So, as I’ve noted on this site before, I can’t shed too many tears (if any) for the Copts.  Their intolerance of Egypt’s Jews has now come full circle in Egyptian Muslims’ intolerance of them.  Islamic intolerance of non-Muslims–including Copts–isn’t news, but it never stopped them from joining their Muslim oppressors to “get” someone they hated more:  Al-yahudi’in, the Jews.

What goes around, comes around.  And the karma of anti-Semitic hate and killing is often a bitch.  This time, an Islamic bitch.

If you want ignorant crying over the Copts, visit ignoramus frauds like Pamela Geller (who regularly praises the anti-Semitic Copts), who have no knowledge about much of anything.  If you want the truth and historical perspective, don’t cry over the Copts.  They didn’t cry over my Jewish Egyptian friends.  They helped make them cry.

Islamic intolerance and murder is unacceptable, but not only when the victims of it are not Jews.  Once the Copts learn this and issue an apology for their historic alliance with that intolerance, then I will worry about their fate.

But not until then.  Right now, I really couldn’t care less about the fate of proud anti-Semites, regardless of whether their oppressors are Muslim.  It’s like my view of the Shi’ite-Sunni civil war and the unfortunately-defunct Iran-Iraq War:

Let them fight each other forever and leave the Jews alone.

****  UPDATE:  Reader Joseph, an Egyptian Jew who was expelled along with his family and most Egyptian Jews from Egypt, agrees:

Dear Debbie!
I read your article about Muslims killing Copts in Egypt….as i was born in that country…78 years ago…and lived there 26 years…i know enough the attitude of Copts about Jews!
Copts were the one that introduced virulent antisemite in Egypt…. becoming more effective when Christians came to that country from Syria and Levanon
I dont pretend that Muslims were not antijews…but not so much as they are today!
Please excuse my english…
I write much better in french…and in hebrew!
***
Sorry Debbie….That email run away from me before in finish it!

I wanted to congratulate you and to wish you all the best!
Continue!
You are a light for the Jews!
all the best
joseph
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90 Responses

This is a very educational post. I had no idea about the anti-semitism of the Copts. Hopefully your Coptic readers are better than that.

Little Al on January 8, 2010 at 3:49 pm

Debbie, agreed. Anti-Semites killing each other is something Jews would do well enough not to interfere with. The Copts never cared what the Muslims did to their Jewish brethren. Now they’re on the receiving end of Muslim intolerance. Egypt’s Christians wanted nothing to do with the Jews and now its come full circle for them which is why I don’t care about what’s being done to them.

Another of those fights like Hamas Vs Fatah, Hezbollah vs Hamas and the Shiites vs Sunnis destined to continue forever!

NormanF on January 8, 2010 at 4:06 pm

Hello Debbie, One must understand that these Coptics are not Christians in the first place. First of all, true Christianity is a lifestyle, not a religion. God did not create organized religion, he detests it. The only religion you are supposed to have is how you go about your personal relationship with the father (John 3:16). Coptics, Maronites are from Roman Catholicism. We Christians know of God’s word when he spoke to Abraham and then reconfirmed it to Jacob: ” I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee”(Genesis 12:3, also Genesis 27:29). A true believer heeds God’s words, and will love and treasure the Jews, as by his command. Please take comfort in HIS words.

Marc C on January 8, 2010 at 4:23 pm

Please read this short story, it will put things into the proper perspective:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp

Marc C on January 8, 2010 at 4:32 pm

Amanda is somewhat befuddled, if not overtly anti-Semitic attributing Judiams to these four individuals.

. Lenin and Stalin were non-Jewish from birth, and all their lives. Stalin’s lifelong anti-Semitism is well known and acknowledged by all sensible persons Trotsky was born Jewish but renounced his religion at an early age. He opposed Zionism vehemently and believed that Jews did not make good revolutionaries. Marx, Jewish at birth, also renounced Jewish and wrote overtly anti-Semitic work as disgusting as anything written in the 19th century.

LA: I removed the openly anti-Semitic comments of Pamela Geller fan Amanda, FYI (before I read your response–sorry). But it should be noted that this is the kind of reader the ignoramus fraud Pamela Geller draws–Jew-haters. DS

Little Al on January 8, 2010 at 5:04 pm

Most people are not familiar with the history of Islamic tolerance. Here is a rather long piece which discusses the white slavery aspect of islamic tolerance. It describes in some detail what Copts and other Christian minorities experienced under Islamic rule over the centuries.
http://www.australianislamistmonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3235:-islams-european-slave-trade-by-muslim-turks-eg-ottoman-and-tartars-part-g-in-islams-genocidal-slavery&catid=170&Itemid=67

From Debbie’s link: “THE LEADER of the Coptic Church, Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria told Egyptian television last month the Western Churches were wrong to exonerate Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and criticised recent statements apologising for Christian anti-Semitism.”

I always learn something, and this was news to me. Thank you for presenting it.
Given the iron hand of the dhimmi system described in the above link, how much do sympathies towards Islamic antisemitism get driven by a desire to survive? Clearly, such sympathies haven’t helped the Copt’s or any other non-muslim minority, as revealed in clearly documented historic records as well as current events.
Perhaps when this history is exposed, as it should be in every high school, people will finally learn from past mistakes. Time is short. There is no excuse in this day and age for anyone to say “I didn’t know”.

wtd on January 8, 2010 at 5:06 pm

correction of typos in above post:

Lenin and Stalin were non-Jewish from birth, and all their lives. Stalin’s lifelong anti-Semitism is well known and acknowledged by all sensible persons. Trotsky was born Jewish but renounced his religion at an early age. He opposed Zionism vehemently and believed that Jews did not make good revolutionaries. Marx, Jewish at birth, also renounced Judaism and wrote overtly anti-Semitic work as disgusting as anything written in the 19th century.

The gratuitous comments about jealously and misplaced attacks denote clear anti-Semitism on Amanda’s part.

Little Al on January 8, 2010 at 5:09 pm

Debbie is right regarding Christians in the Middle East, the Orthodox churches in general are antiIsraeli more than others. However, Israel has burned it’s allies in Lebanon re: SLA, Southern Lebanese Army. But I blame, Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton for that fiasco more than the state or it’s people.

There are some leadership types living in Israel and I know members of it that keep real low in Lebanon and or that have to have left. There was a rumor in Lebanon that Ron Lauder of Estee Lauder got alot of them placed overseas and in Israel. Can you deny or confirm that.

Also, @ Marc? Seriously?

Dirtyleb on January 8, 2010 at 5:20 pm

Something about living around Arabs long enough rots the brain cells. Israel in the fifties had little cafes and cultural clubs galore, more symphony orchestras per capita than anywhere else on earth. Now the majority population of Israel is Sephardic former Arab dhimmis and the country is full of Jewish gangster families killing each other (ALL with sephardic names), falafel stands, bad discotheques and Ukrainian whores. The schools are crap, the IQ of the entire country has plummeted.

poetcomic1 on January 8, 2010 at 5:50 pm

Very well said, Debbie!

The Cops are just another Christian group suffering persecution from the Muslims every where on this planet where ever they are the MINORITIE! Bethlehem is almost empty of Christians… In Lebanon, the Marons are going to disappear in a generation or two. The remains of the Orthodox & other Churches in Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq and the rest,will disappear in less then 20 years from now! They are living an borrowed time! Their days are numbered! They know it! And the rest of the word knows it!

===” I can’t shed too many tears (if any) for the Copts. “===
I’m not going to shed too many tears (if any)too! And for the same reasons! I know that they are just the “Apetizer” before the “Main Course”… The Jews!! They also know that it will take many bloody “Rounds” (on their side!), but they find comfort in the false belief, that the tiny micro chance exists that the last “Round” will be theirs!..

Sleep well Debbie, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN !!!

Alexander Münch on January 8, 2010 at 5:54 pm

islam is NOT a religion! it is a DISEASE! it is nothing but a fascist racist sexist cult of sadists – a cancer that must be eradicated! that’s why those nukes just sitting there should be used NOW on the many, many targets available? How do we know they can be aimed accurately and will hit the target if we don’t try to find out!

Bob S. on January 8, 2010 at 6:04 pm

what about going to the coptic churches in saudi arabia – bush’s friends? big oil’s friends? why dont they just move to saudi arabia and practice their coptic religion there?

Bob S. on January 8, 2010 at 6:07 pm

[what about going to the coptic churches in saudi arabia – bush’s friends? big oil’s friends? why dont they just move to saudi arabia and practice their coptic religion there?

Bob S. on January 8, 2010 at 6:07 pm]

Really? I thought Saudi Arabia didn’t allow Christian churches.

Norman Blitzer on January 8, 2010 at 6:19 pm

I just found your website today, I love it! You are awesome and speak the truth, keep up the great work.

-a new fan

David F on January 8, 2010 at 6:30 pm

Thanks for opening my eyes Deb. I was worries, but not anymore. What goes around comes around.

Papi Jones on January 8, 2010 at 6:58 pm

Write something about how the Christians in Lebanon are being persecuted by their achmed overlords.

A: I’ve written plenty. You must be a new reader. But, again, while some factions of Maronite Christianity are pro-Israel, others, like Michel Aoun’s people, have joined the anti-Semites in Hezbollah. No tears form the Aounites, either. DS

Amy on January 8, 2010 at 7:00 pm

If you were educated you would have known that Coptic Christians ARE PRO-ISRAEL, but your lack of political intelligence forbids you from noticing this fact, from knowing that Coptic Christians DID PAY AN EXPENSIVE PRICE FOR BEING PRO-ISRAEL, AND AS A COPTIC CHRISTIAN I FIND YOU INGNORANT, HATFUL AND OFFENSIVE, AND MY PRO-ISRAEL WORK –UNLIKE YOU- IS SOMETHING I COMPROMISE MY LIFE FOR. And will always happily do.

SHAME ON YOU for spreading this nasty propaganda you are equalily as offensive as the Sunnis we suffer fro,!

Publish my comment if you have an ounce of integrity.

C: Actually, I am educated. Copts are anti-Semitic fanatics. If there are a few individual exceptions (and there are, but they are only the exception, not the rule), so what? Doesn’t change the fact that Copts–in most cases in Egypt and around the world–were even more rabidly anti-Semitic than Muslims. Glad you are pro-Israel, but stop lying about your church and fellow co-religionists. They hate Jews and Israel. Period. DS

Cyn on January 8, 2010 at 8:40 pm

Shel publish yours, cyn. But should I post all the passages from the bible or Torah that are just as bad as verses from the Koran then mine will be deleted.

Nak on January 8, 2010 at 8:55 pm

I have met a couple of pro-Israel Copts on the net and they tend to be quite conservative in their political leanings. However, the biggest Jew hater I have ever met on the net also happens to be a female Copt married to a Palestinian Christian. The woman is really vile and always mentions her Egyptian, Coptic Christian background. But her words and feeling are far from Christian! I remember her once saying that that Pope pictured above had been to light on Israel with regards to the Palestinians.

Karen on January 8, 2010 at 11:02 pm

The Pope might be anti-semitic, but some of the Coptic Christians might be independently pro-Israel as shown by Syn if he is truly a Coptic Christian. And if the coptic Pope has been showing anti-semitic slant, then it is the duty of pro-Israel Copts to speak against their own Pope. If you do that, it will show that, as Christian Copts, you live by morally sound values, not blind followers of a pope. Then you can prove Debbie is not that accurate in portraying all copts as anti-semitic. Remember when violent muslims go on suicide bombing and caricature epileptic seizure, not many muslims stand up and speak against it. What we heard is many voices from muslims blaming the west, the jews when such things happened.

To Nak:
The point is not the bad verses in whatever holy books. The point is what the religious followers do literally with their violent verses. Can you find one Christian who kill while chanting Haleluyah in our world today? You can find quite a lot of Muslim especially those with taliban worldview who will cut heads off with the shout of Allahu Akbar or who will dance celebrating 911. Can you find one Christian who think being suicide bomber will glorify Jesus? You’ll find muslim who agree with suicide bombing as part of their Jihad, their religious duty to their (blood thristy) Allah.

There are so many silly and violent verses in Torah/Bible and Quran of which most religious followers do not understand because most people see the verses through literal lenses, materialistic oriented lenses while the purpose of all those verses is to convey spiritual meanings through allegorical potrayals. Most – the religious followers and the liberal atheists – are not aware of the unseen, so can’t be expected to understand the actual meaning behind all those seemingly violent verses. But Kabbalists like those who wrote Zohar, those truly Gnostic Christians and Sufis in real spiritual oriented Islam, do know the true meaning. People with common sense, with sound moral values will not just follow blindly verses that command the killing of the whole town people just because the bible/torah/quran says so. But blind followers like those muslims will believe anything literally in their Quran up to the point when they read Jews are descendant of pig and monkey and should be killed, they just believe it. This is sign of brain damaged. So, for you – Nak – with liberal materialistic worldview, you might think all the verses in all the holy books is the same violent verses and might think Jews, Christians are the same as Muslims because you just base your narrow minded judgement on verses, not on the action of the religious followers. Don’t you remember the saying, action speaks much much louder than verses :-) ?

SpicaChang on January 9, 2010 at 4:57 am

“antisemitic egyptians?”

Egyptians and other Arabs are certainly more semites than the fake khazars jews like schlussel.

taggle on January 9, 2010 at 5:24 am

“Coptic Pope Shenouda III: His Anti-Semitic Sermons Rival Those of Muslim Clerics”

I haven’t heard any of his sermons, so I’ll have to take your word for it, Debbie. That doesn’t mean that we don’t need to show any humanity and compassion to a people who now face ethnic cleansing, daily attacks, abductions and forced marriages and conversions.

The preachers of these Copts might be deluded Kapos and willing tools for the Mohammedans, but don’t forget that we have just as many sell-outs, traitors, apologists and useful idiots among our people, Debbie. The question is only: what hurts us more?

S: WRONG. There are no “deluded Kapos” among the Copts. Stop being an apologist for these Jew-haters and Jew-killers. To say that is extremely ignorant and uninformed. Copts are anti-Semitic fanatics. If there are a few individual exceptions (and there are, but they are only the exception, not the rule), so what? Doesn’t change the fact that Copts–in most cases in Egypt and around the world–were even more rabidly anti-Semitic than Muslims. What hurts us is your BS comments about Jews in order to excuse Copts’ anti-Semitism. By that warped “logic” all anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel is acceptable to you because some Jews do that? Wow, never thought the “blame the Jews” ethos would come from you. They–the Copts–hate Jews and Israel. Period. You have lost a good deal of my respect with this ridiculous apologism. Anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel is not to be excused, regardless of the ethnicity of the holder of it. DS

sheik yer'mami on January 9, 2010 at 8:39 am

    Debbie sez:

    There are no “deluded Kapos” among the Copts. Stop being an apologist for these Jew-haters and Jew-killers. To say that is extremely ignorant and uninformed.

    Perhaps it is. Perhaps I never had any information about Coptic Jew-haters and Jew-killers.

    Copts are anti-Semitic fanatics. If there are a few individual exceptions (and there are, but they are only the exception, not the rule), so what?

    Again, I plead ignorance. Where do you take your information from?

    Doesn’t change the fact that Copts–in most cases in Egypt and around the world–were even more rabidly anti-Semitic than Muslims. What hurts us is your BS comments about Jews in order to excuse Copts’ anti-Semitism. By that warped “logic” all anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel is acceptable to you because some Jews do that?

    Never. I didn’t mean to imply that. I found extreme Israel hatred among (some) Jews and that hurts. I don’t know any Copts, so how can I judge them as a collective?

    Wow, never thought the “blame the Jews” ethos would come from you. They–the Copts–hate Jews and Israel. Period. You have lost a good deal of my respect with this ridiculous apologism. Anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel is not to be excused, regardless of the ethnicity of the holder of it. DS

    I make no apologies because I am unable to judge in this situation. Is there any written material on the subject Copts v Jews?

    sheik yer'mami on January 10, 2010 at 8:34 pm

The Moe Howard hairdo is all I see here.

#1 Vato on January 9, 2010 at 9:31 am

I have also seen a number of pro-Israel Egyptian Copts in the United States, including those criticizing the Egyptian Copt Pope. I think it would be very wrong and narrow-minded to ignore the ethnic cleansing of the Egyptian Copts. I have seen their pro-Israel supporters in the U.S. today.

A: Copts are anti-Semitic fanatics. If there are a few individual exceptions (and there are, but they are only the exception, not the rule), so what? Doesn’t change the fact that Copts–in most cases in Egypt and around the world–were even more rabidly anti-Semitic than Muslims. Stop your absurd apologism for this rabidly anti-Semitic group of people who actively participated in the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Egypt. They hate Jews and Israel. Period. You sound like those who claim there are so many moderate Muslims in the U.S. so we should ignore that Muslims are anti-Semitic Jew-killers. DS

Another View on January 9, 2010 at 11:25 am

Thanks for the info about Copt anti-semitism in Egypt, Debbie. I am now a regular visitor to your website because I appreciate your brutal honesty.

Much thanks

Keamon on January 9, 2010 at 12:58 pm

Before you jump to any conclusions about Pope Shenouda, listen to some more of his sermons. If you have a clue about anything you are talking about you would know that he is one of the holiest people alive today. I’m telling you, you are criticizing a holy man. For you to say you don’t have any sympathy for HUMANS brutally murdered for [what??] being a different religion then you truly have no heart. And for everyone that is agreeing with this lady, do your research. There are millions of people affected by this tragedy today and for you to even have an article title that states “Why I Don’t Care” is completely heartless. Shame on you…have some respect. If you are so secure about your judgements, post my reply.

M: Anti-Semitism and the incitement against Jews regularly practiced by Shenouda makes him anything but “holy.” Yes, I have no sympathy for Jew-haters and Jew-killers, including Nazis, Copts, etc. Guess what? I have no sympathy for Nazis who got killed, either. “Shame” on me for that “heartlessness,” right? DS

Michael on January 9, 2010 at 1:25 pm

How can the Coptics show up on our radar twice in one week after not hearing of them for quite awile?
http://slaughteringthesheep.wordpress.com/2010/01/09/marian-apparitions-appearing-in-egypt/

Douglas Q on January 9, 2010 at 5:50 pm

Debbie,

Nobody in his right mind would condone with anti-semitism. But You will have to see these Copts as victims. They are tiny, small minority under Muslim pressure where they are demanded time and again to prove where their loyalties are. Muslims demand of them to assure them that they are on their side and not traitors. So, they might talk in this or that way about Jews, but I assure you that they never met an actual Jew. They have yet to meet actual Jews before they face up to what they have been indoctrinated with. Besides, there is a legacy of anti-semitic patristic heritage that is hardly read critically. Same goes for the Bible and many other things. The issue is a bit complicated.

I: Spare me your apologism for Copts. They are not victims. They are perpetrators. They viciously murdered Jews throughout their history in Egypt. DS

Ibrahim Arafat on January 9, 2010 at 6:09 pm

“THE LEADER of the Coptic Church, Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria told Egyptian television last month the Western Churches were wrong to exonerate Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ…”

http://www.religiousintelligence.co.uk/news/?NewsID=747

Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria’sinterpretation of the New Testament is obviously in error. The Romans (representing the world), the Jews (representing God’s covenant people), and the disciples (representing the Church) ALL CO-OPERATED in crucifying Jesus. But that was God’s will. So, none are innocent!

You and I today, by our sins, crucify Jesus again.

And, again.

The Copts have been in error in matters of faith, and morals, for a long time.

It must be a real bummer to have a fallible pope.

Pope Shenouda III, is really just the leader of a national church.

God’s will was always a much greater entity than that, a universal kingdom. Even in the beginning of the Church, several nations were involved in the Church’s formation. There is a sign in that. Universal, not national, or ethnic-based marks the true Church.

Our ongoing St. Peter, in the teaching of faith and morals, has never been in error. Ex-cathedra ONLY. And because we are that Church, entrusted with God’s New Covenant, we must be brutally honest, and acknowledge our moral failings.

Whether, as a Church, or, as a individual.

THAT is the highness of our calling…

Anti-Semitism has no place in Christianity.

We need to pray for all victims of Islamists. Political Islam is the enemy of all religions, even secular humanism.

Debbie you make for a great Jew… but would be a horrendous Christian… with all due respect ~

The Canadien on January 9, 2010 at 10:19 pm

(I’ve also heard, though, that the Maronite Christians are just as bad — in terms of antisemitism. they’re Greek Orthodox, in Lebanon speak Arabic, etc., and are pretty vile — or so I’ve heard…Once upon a time, I heard and liked some maronite music — beautiful, beautiful music, chants — then, I looked into them, and was pretty much repulsed by their views.)

J.S. on January 9, 2010 at 11:00 pm

I’m a Christian who lets my faith AND common sense be my guide and always question everything I see and hear. Not always verbally, but at least mentally.
I simply cannot understand any so called Christian anti-Semitism. It just doesn’t make sense. As Christians we should be gratefull for the Jews if we truly beleive that Jesus, Himself a Jew, is our Meessiah and Saviour.

And the stupid old excuse “the Jews crucified Christ” is so wrong, and no, the Romans didn’t do it either. If you are truly an honest and beleiving Christian you simply accept the fact that HE was crucified for YOUR sins and MINE and we have no one else to blame but ourselves.
One major problem is too many people follow blindly behind relegious leaders who use their positions for power rather than to serve to bring their people closer to G_d.

The Copts made their own bed, but I do feel sorry for the FEW good souls who wind up in these types of predicaments and have to suffer for the sins of others, as happens much too often.

BTW, doesn’t Pope Shenouda III look like he’s wearing a really bad Elvis wig in that pic :)
…sorry, I couldn’t resist

theShadow on January 9, 2010 at 11:00 pm

I like the Maronite Christians about as much as I like those who post at the Daily KKK-KOS (on Dec 25 — as if that date has any meaning, other than hatred for Jews) and then characterize themselves as the “Arab Christian Kossacks.” Pretty much says it all.

J.S. on January 9, 2010 at 11:36 pm

I really pity all of you….you really have no brain cells when it comes to things outside your little precious country……you are really like dogs…and their comfort zone….or more like…..when they shit and mark their territories…..im a Maronite christian from lebanon……and im most definitely not siding with any Jew or Israeli…..you just don’t want to see what you people are doping to the world don’t you???….. i have one word for you…..IGNORANCE!!

beyond on January 10, 2010 at 12:02 am

Debbie are you and your fellow travelers calling for the extermination of all anti-semitics whether muslim or copt?

Do you agree with Bob S. “…a cancer that must be eradicated! that’s why those nukes just sitting there should be used NOW on the many, many targets available? How do we know they can be aimed accurately and will hit the target if we don’t try to find out!” and think we should nuke all the muslims?

As Jesus said love your enemies and turn the other cheek.

Matt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

Matt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Of course you aren’t obliged by these rules but the Christians here are.

Shame on all who call for and rejoice in the murder of others.

Joseph on January 10, 2010 at 1:11 am

Well, Joseph, why don’t you direct your edifying remarks to your co-religionists who proudly proclaim themselves as “Arab Christian Kossacks”? Save your “preaching” for those who require it — that would be the Copts, Arabs, and all the other self-proclaimed genocidal Kossacks. (groups to which I, personally, do not subscribe to).

J.S. on January 10, 2010 at 1:28 am

Debbie you are correct we Christians should be more critical of our fellow believers, but you haven’t answered either of my questions at least not directly. Do you agree with Bob S. and think we should nuke your proclaimed enemies or not? And do you believe we should kill all anti-semitics even ethnic Jewish ones like Pamela Geller? As I understand it she is a Shoah denier but pro Israel, quite a combination.

Joseph on January 10, 2010 at 2:08 am

WHAT’S THAT ON THEIR HEADS?

Looks like an Elvis wig.

“Thank you. Thank you very much.” — Trio greets fans at the “Coptic Elvis Impersonators Convention?”

yonason on January 10, 2010 at 2:52 am

“Debbie are you and your fellow travelers calling for the extermination of all anti-semitics whether muslim or copt?” — Joseph on January 10, 2010 at 1:11 am

She isn’t calling for their extermination, just pointing out that they are as violent as the Arabs, and as such don’t deserve any special treatment. As long as they hate me and want to kill me, I have no sympathy for them, either (…either of them).

And “an eye for an eye” doesn’t mean you poke out an eye of someone who caused that damage. It means, AND HAS ALWAYS MEANT, that the perpetrator pays damages for the value of an eye, and it’s assessed based on the value of that specific eye. The eye of a surgeon is worth more than that of a garbage collector, and so the value will be different.

The problem was that the early Church rejected the Oral Torah, so they just started making up what they thought it meant, and said a lot of stupid things in the process. The problem is now that those errors are taken as facts, and result in misunderstandings at best, violence at worst.

If Christians REALLY believed in “turning the other cheek,” how is it that they killed more Jews than the Muslims, even up to modern times?

Here’s a little history for you…
http://www.hearnow.org/caljp.html
http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/church/persecution/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers.htm
…which you will notice include some Christian sources.

yonason on January 10, 2010 at 4:41 am

Debbie,

I’m an Orthodox Jew and I think the issue is much more complex than you allow, at least with present-day Copts. As proof of this, see this site called Voice of the Copts, which has posted articles against anti-Semitism:

http://voiceofthecopts.org/en/news/anti-semitic_saudi_chief_imam_feted_in_london.html

http://voiceofthecopts.org/en/tag/anti-semitism

Further, I know Cyn (who commented earlier) very well personally and she, who is a Copt, says she has never met an anti-Semitic Copt in her life. In fact, she co-founded the first political party in Egypt whose platform includes seeing Israel as a friend; and in other capacities, she has fought very specifically against anti-Semitism in Egypt and Egyptian politics, often at cost to herself, and faces grave threats almost daily because of this very commitment. She was very upset by your remarks. Is it your intention to spit in the face of such friends who are making such a personal sacrifice on behalf of Jews?

At the same time, I agree it seems clear that the main current religious leader of the Coptic Christians, Pope Shenouda II, espouses both anti-Semitic and anti-Israel views (or at the very least, is willing to cave to Egyptian pressure to promote these views). So then you would be justified in criticizing him. But I am wondering what your attitude would be about a group of innocent Catholics being murdered by Islamists if those Catholics happened to live before the last Pope made his apology to the Jews.

I think you are misguided in your approach. You cannot know the thoughts and feelings of the individuals who were murdered; and even IF you were correct about the sentiments of the group as a whole, it is usually wrong to assume that each individual of a group thinks exactly the same way, unless the very point of their membership is specifically for that purpose alone and has been carefully chosen by them (for example, a Neo-Nazi). And even IF their thoughts and feelings were misguided, this does not make them murderers or mean they have personally persecuted anyone, and does not somehow make their murder insignificant. So even if this event was not the first thing on your mind, based on your reading of the overall situation, you need not be so cavalier in your attitude to human life. You should have more responsibility than that.

MB: Your analogy to the Catholic Church–though, I’ve been quite critical of the Pope–is completely ridiculous. A much more accurate comparison is to Islam, which the Copts are exactly like in their views on the Jews. The Copts are openly anti-Semitic as is their Pope, and they openly participate in and espouse Jew-hatred today and over the last few contemporary decades (in addition to in the past). That’s hardly the same as the Catholic Church. And Pope Shenouda III is just the latest in a long line of openly anti-Semitic Coptic Popes.

Your eagerness to excuse and ignore all of this because a few peaceful exceptions have a website is absurd, and exactly the same as the many Jewish and other liberals who tell us that because a few unrepresentative “moderate” Muslims have a website or write an article, I should ignore the vast majority of Muslims who espouse Jew hatred and terror. YOU–NOT me–should have more responsibility than that and are not only misguided, but incredibly naive. WAKE. UP. There are facts and knowledge about the Copts–which I recognize and have–and then, there are fantasies of the ignorant–ie., you. Those are quite dangerous. We have enough useful idiots. Stop adding to that population. DS

Mark Bernstein on January 10, 2010 at 4:59 am

yonason you are right about the Christian persecution of Jews up to and including the modern age, so why aren’t we Christians still considered a threat? Because most of us now consider anti-semitism to be an abomination. An earlier generation considered the Japanese and Germans to be less than human and only worthy of death. FDR jokingly considered castrating all surviving German males after the war. My and probably your ancestors considered Native Americans to be sub human animals who raped and murdered with wild abandon and again worthy only of killing. Few feel that way now. Debbie and most of the folks on this site remind me of those historic attitudes. Few of us live up our proclaimed faith and political beliefs and Christians aren’t alone in that particular failing.

I ask you yonason if you could have killed Hitler when he was 2, would you have done it? If most muslims are violent and destined to do harm to nonbelievers do you think we should kill all of them, men, women and children or perhaps just the parents and adopt out the children young enough not to have been contaminated like the Argentinian’s did in their war against leftist terror back in the ’70s? You can’t have it both ways, if muslims are really irredeemable then nits make lice.

Joseph on January 10, 2010 at 5:38 am

    IM a Coptic, thanks for your message Debbie, people like you have nothing but hatred and revenge in their hearts, I hope this is not what you teach your children to hate one another and not care for each other as I definitely don’t teach this type of behavior to my kids. Coptic’s have been persecuted for centuries but this just makes us stronger in faith , it’s a blessing, But I would never condone violence or hatred against you Debbie, or others. Peace be with you in the name of Jesus Christ our lord and savior.

    M: Sorry that you think the Jews should continue to roll over and die for the Copts and shed tears for them. But, unlike many ignoramuses, I’m not about to do that. That’s hardly “revenge” or “condoning violence or hatred.” That’s what you–the Copts–do, and now that it has come full circle and is being visited upon, I just don’t care either way. You have it wrong: the Copts were not “persecuted for centuries.” They were the co-persecutORS (of the Jews) for centuries, and they continue to be to date. I don’t shed tears for dead Nazis or Muslims. And I’m not about to do so for their long-time consistent partners in Jew-hatred and Jew-murder, the Copts. What goes around comes around. Turning the other cheek for my enemies is not a Jewish concept. If it were, the Jewish people would have died out long ago. DS

    michael on January 10, 2010 at 8:09 am

——-
Asked whether Jews were “Christ-killers”, responsible for the crucifixion, Shenouda stated, “The New Testament says that they are,” and asked rhetorically whether the Vatican was “against the teachings of the New Testament?”
http://liberalwall.blogspot.com/2008/02/coptic-church-and-anti-semitism.html
——-

Assuming New Testament can be considered as dependable historical records, then it’s true SOME Jews AT THAT ERA demanded the crucifixion of Jesus, so they killed Jesus. But it’s only SOME Jews of that era, not ALL Jews of that era. To generalized ALL Jews in ALL eras as Christ-killers, now what should that be called? Brain damaged :-)? Definitely unthinking fool. Hasty reckless generalization always come from one who’s too lazy to think and just want to believe any opinions that suit their tendencies – the likes, dislikes, hatred that were unconsciously programmed into them.

So, if Pope Shenouda meant what he said, that the Jews including the present day Jews are all guilty of crucifying Jesus, then I have no doubt to call him unthinking fool. Considering his subsequent comment about “banning Copts from visiting Israel for fear they will be influenced by the Israeli media”, I am wondering whether he looked at Copts as incapable of independent thinking. Any Copts having common sense would question whether such a command is God’s command. Reasonable people would think for themselves, not let themselves be controlled by an outside authority such as a pope. The pope banning you, you just obey like a thinkingless herds? What if the pope tell you to drink poison just like Jim Jones told his congregation to mass suicide? Submitting to such a command is the same as unthinking muslim robots abiding to their clerics’ fatwas.

SpicaChang on January 10, 2010 at 8:34 am

DEBBIE raises significant points with this article.

What IS the official leader of a sizeable Christian sect doing misinterpreting the New Testament ?

And then using that misinterpretation to fan hatred towards modern Jews? Doesn’t that dummy know that the Church has survived all forms of persecution down through the ages whether by the Jews, the pagans, the schismatics, the heretics, or even members of the Catholic Church itself.

And it bears repeating that the Romans (through apathy), the Jewish leadership at the time of Christ (through jealousy), and the very disciples of Jesus themselves (through cowardice) bore the mutual responsibility for the crucifixion of Christ Jesus. To fulfil prophesy and to make the salvation of man possible, the Father withdrew grace from these groups to ensure his plan of salvation would be accomplished.

Remember though, that every time YOU sin (you the reader, I mean) you made it necessary for Jesus to go to that cross some 2000 years ago. Got it?

I can’t believe Pope Shenouda has such a simple-minded approach to biblical exegesis.

And that as a “Pope”, he could teach such error!!

And that this “Pope” still has followers that haven’t left the Coptic Church, and made a new home in Rome!!!

The New Testament asserts nothing negative against Jews except for those who were Jesus’s contemporaries. And perhaps, a few others who continued in a similar negative vein against the emerging Church, a generation, thereafter. That’s it!

For Pope Shenouda to extrapolate that Jews, 1900 years later, are still somehow guilty as killers of Christ is absolutely incredible!

Pope Shenouda must be suffering from the same sort of early onset senility that has manifested itself, as anti-Semitism, for years, in Jimmy Carter. Both Jimmy and Shenouda need to learn how to correctly interpret Holy Scripture. And world events. And the Islamists in their midst—

And yonasson, you said, “The problem was that the early Church rejected the Oral Torah, so they just started making up what they thought it meant, and said a lot of stupid things in the process.”

No. The Early Church rejected the existing Jewish interpretation of the Old Testimony, that failed to embrace the Christ.

Plain and simple, yonasson, we don’t believe YOU know how to accurately read your Bible. If you missed the Christ, you didn’t just miss something, you missed someone.

Him.

And you may know about golfing, or home repair, and we’ll listen for sure to you there… But if you talk about the Bible, well, hopefully politely, but collectively, we Catholics must roll our eyes at you. The New Testament is calculus. The Old Testament is simple addition.

Or appears to be.

Once you have the “calculus” of the New Testament down, you can go back and discover the calculus of the Old Testament as well. Until then, really, you haven’t got a clue regarding complete and accurate Biblical exegesis…

Happy searching…

The Canadien on January 10, 2010 at 10:43 am

No. The Early Church rejected the existing Jewish interpretation of the Old Testimony, that failed to embrace the Christ.

The Canadien on January 10, 2010 at 10:43 am

——————————————–

What a laugh!

There is no dead jesus Jew anywhere in all of Tanach. Oh – except for a generic reference Deuteronomy 13:1-6.

Even assuming your jesus was an actual historical figure (there’s no reason to assume so), he meant nothing – and still doesn’t – to any G-d fearing Torah observant Jew.

Here, watch some movies, which Debbie hasn’t reviewed yet:

Jesus was not the messiah – parts 1 through 5>

Sorry, Cinderfella, the shoe didn’t fit.

Once you have the “calculus” of the New Testament down, you can go back and discover the calculus of the Old Testament as well. Until then, really, you haven’t got a clue regarding complete and accurate Biblical exegesis…

—————————————-
The Eternal Torah

Your pagan beliefs and manuscripts are a historic and theological sham!

“Consider, brothers, how you were called; not many of you are wise by human standards, not many influential, not many from noble families.
No, God chose those who by human standards are fools to shame the wise; he chose those who by human standards are weak to shame the strong,
those who by human standards are common and contemptible — indeed those who count for nothing — to reduce to nothing all those that do count for something”

– 1 Corinthians 1:26-28

Dimwits for Jesus – and it shows!

Shy Guy on January 10, 2010 at 1:34 pm

Jeez you are one sick woman!

Aliyah Gad on January 10, 2010 at 2:10 pm

Iam Coptic, actually iam the one who asked Debbie to write about the Christmas attacks on Copts on her website.
I AGREE WITH DEBBIE that most of us Copts are anti-Semitic, we are anti-Semitic because we are both brainwashed and terrorized by Muslims to be, not because we have something against Jewish people, anyway I believe this still is not an Excuse for us to be anti-Semitic.

Maged Hanna on January 10, 2010 at 2:56 pm

Very enlightening and interesting post and comments. Many I don’t agree with and many I do…I had not heard of the Copt Christian’s before…sounds like a radical group who diverted from what the Catholic church teaches and believes. I definitely don’t understand how they as Christian’s believe it is the Jews fault Christ was killed…He died for our sins because of prophecy and it was God’s will, so that those who believed in Him would have eternal life.

PS
Curious why many don’t include the ‘o’ when they spell out God??

freedom4usa on January 10, 2010 at 3:08 pm

Curious why many don’t include the ‘o’ when they spell out God??

freedom4usa on January 10, 2010 at 3:08 pm

Sign of respect and reverence.

BTW, Copts go back way before the established Catholic church was even formed. There were plenty of radical things going on in Rome among the Christians there.

Shy Guy on January 10, 2010 at 3:17 pm

Joseph on January 10, 2010 at 5:38 am

It’s so frustrating when people like Joseph substitute ranting for reason.

“…why aren’t we Christians still considered a threat?”

Unfortunately, all too many of you still are.

In addition to many (though not all) of the Copts, we have some Greek Orthodox, as well.
http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=9716
With notable contributions from American Protestants.
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=3&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=624&PID=0&IID=3147&TTL=Mainline_American_Christian_

The fact is that by Christians as well as Muslims, there are many who are good in spite of the hate that is preached by their priests/imams. So I am not advocating their destruction. I am just saying, it isn’t my fight when the groups killing each other are equally pledged to my destruction.

From Joseph’s remarks, I think perhaps I might not have been clear enough why I mentioned the Christian persecution of Jews, even though not all of them do that today. It was because Joseph was preaching to me about how I should behave. I was merely pointing out that by their behavior, they show that they have no moral authority to tell me, a former victim of their “love,” what to do. In addition, I also pointed out that the twisted interpretation of our Torah upon which he based his pretense of moral superiority was grossly incorrect.

As to killing Hitler when he was 2 year old, that would be murder and is strictly forbidden by Torah Law. At 2 he was still innocent, and could not be held accountable for what he might or might not later do.

And FDR was no better than Hitler in many ways. He probably wasn’t just “joking” about sterilizing the Germans, if he in fact said such a thing (though what it has to do with this topic is not at all clear).

The Christian misinterpretation of “He bore the sins of many” is that the “He” is not referring to a single person, but to the Jewish Nation, which “bore,” i.e., WAS THE BRUNT (OBJECT) OF the evils of the “many,” i.e., the other Nations, who committed sins (rape, murder, pillage, theft, etc., etc.,) against us. THAT is what it means.

Now go keep the 7 Noahide commandments, because that’s all you need. Please note that worshiping a human being is idolatry, and as such is a major violation of those G-d given commandments.
http://www.noahide.org/

yonason on January 10, 2010 at 4:39 pm

“I AGREE WITH DEBBIE” — Maged Hanna on January 10, 2010 at 2:56 pm

Thank you. I wish there were something we could do for the good people, both Muslim and Copt, who are the victims of the vile nature of those in control of your destiny.

This is why we Jews so want the true Messiah, so that evil will be eliminated, and good decent people can live their lives in peace. May it be soon, for all our sakes.

yonason on January 10, 2010 at 4:47 pm

LOL

I see theShadow on January 9, 2010 at 11:00 pm beat me to the punch on the Elvis wig.

And I hadn’t even thought of Moe Howard. Wow!
http://www.etsu.edu/math/gardner/stooges/Moe_Howard.jpg
…and the attitude, to boot! Good call, #1 Vato on January 9, 2010 at 9:31 am

yonason on January 10, 2010 at 7:19 pm

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