April 19, 2007, - 5:16 pm

OUTRAGE: VTech Muslims Upset Over Request to Pray for Non-Muslim Victims

It’s that tolerant “Religion of Peace” at it again.
Members of the mailing list for the student Muslim community at Virginia Tech are up in arms that one of their members dared ask them to pray to Allah for non-Muslim victims of the massacre.
Aafaq, a reformist Islamic website edited by Omran Salman of Bahrain, reports the following:

Debate on Virginia Tech Muslim Students’ Association Mailing List Concerning Permissibility of Praying for Mercy for Non-Muslim Victims

The liberal Arabic-language website Aafaq reports that a Muslim student set off a debate when she sent an email to the mailing list of the Muslim Students’ Association at Virginia Tech asking the students to pray that Allah have mercy on those killed and wounded in the shooting attack at the university.
According to Aafaq, the dean of student affairs at American International University, Abu Hamza Hijji, responded, writing that Allah the Most Merciful forbids praying for mercy for the non-Muslim dead, or even for the non-Muslim living, and that it is only permitted to pray that they be rightly guided [DS: convert to Islam]. He added that what happened was a sad occurrence, but that does not give Muslims the right to transgress the laws of Allah the Most Merciful.
Aafaq reported that a student named Chris, a recent convert, did not agree, and wrote that he usually does not intervene in this kind of discussion, but that this time he had to say “no.” He added that his German teacher, who was wounded in the shooting, is a good man, and that he was praying that he would not die. He said that he would pray for him and for his family, whether they are Muslims or not, and would pray for all those who suffered from this calamity. He expressed the view that religion must bring people together, and not drive them apart, and that the brotherhood of humanity takes precedence over brotherhood of religion or of state.
According to Aafaq, Hijji answered Chris, saying that there is no problem with praying that non-Muslims be kept safe and not be killed, if there is hope that they might be guided [to the right path] [DS: conversion to Islam]; but one cannot pray for the non-Muslim dead, since there is no chance of their being guided. He said that the Prophet Muhammad had told the Muslim soldiers at the battle of Badr to not kill some of the nonbelievers, even though they were on the battlefield, as they had treated Muhammad well when he was in Mecca.
Hijji wrote that the students should ask Allah to save Chris’ teacher (i.e. the German teacher) from death and turn his heart to the truth [DS: convert to Islam]. But he said at the same time that the Prophet did not pray for forgiveness for the non-Muslims, and in particular did not ask Allah to have mercy on them, even those whom the Prophet had wanted to be guided when they were alive. Once they died, the Prophet was not permitted to ask for mercy for them. Hijji added that the Prophet behaved this way on Allah’s instructions.
Hijji wrote that the relative importance of brotherhood in humanity or religion needs to be evaluated according to Allah’s laws, and not according to human reason. He added that he might seem to be a hard-hearted person, but that this is what people throughout the generations said about the prophets and messengers who came with God’s message to guide others to the truth.
According to Aafaq, some students expressed their uneasiness with the discussion and asked to be taken off the mailing list, while others tried to justify the seemingly difficult matter.
Aafaq noted that at least one Muslim student, Waleed Shaalan, had been killed in the attacks.

Source: Aafaq.org, April 17, 2007
Thanks to my friend, Jan, for the tip.

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124 Responses

Serp, I live in Israel, so I know a lot of Muslims (yes, I actually know them). When I lived in America, my best friend for a time was married to a Syrian Muslim, a modern, Americanized, educated guy. I spent a fair amount of time at their house so I knew him well, though initially he had tried to prohibit her from being friends with a Jew. Imagine that! Anyway, at one point he thought she was having an affair, told his entire family, and though they later patched things up between them, he told her to never open the door to his cousins (who had recently immigrated). It seems he was genuinely concerned that they might try to kill her, since it is understood that sometimes the husband doesn’t have the emotional resolve to carry out the honor killing. True story. She now has to look over her shoulder everywhere she goes and is afraid to divorce him, and afraid to stay with him. You’ll try to tell me this is an isolated event and that even white guys abuse their wives — right. Difference is, the religion and the culture of the white guy don’t support his or his family’s evil actions.
That there may be individual Muslims who are “good,” I have already stated. These are the ones who choose to ignore large swaths of their guide book. Have you visited Apostates of Islam? Do it, and then you can quit admonishing me and everyone else to “go and meet some Muslims” because presumably, we don’t know anything. These men and women know everything about the Islam they grew up in. The religion is evil. I do not for a minute buy the excuse that all the evil is merely “cultural” and that it has no relationship to the teachings of Islam. I cannot believe that you would try to assert that!! Remember, in Islamic countries, Sha’aria law is in effect. Do you know what Sha’aria law is? Apparently not.
Israel is not committing human rights abuses and you know it. That is the biggest lie perpetrated by the enemy and the enemy’s enablers. Palestinians come into our hospitals for top quality medical care; they come into our country and attend our colleges; despite their relentless attacks on us, the state of Israel still sends them millions of dollars. They are the only “oppressed people” who have somehow managed to triple their population during the period of their oppression. Some oppression! Wow, if only we Jews could have some oppression like that — that would solve our small population problem. Some abuse! You must be talking about the checkpoints where they are asked to show their ID and submit their bags to a routine weapons check so we can be sure they aren’t one of those “few” who are trying to murder Jews. I imagine a lot of them would rather submit to the extreme humilation of flashing an ID card at an Israeli soldier, rather than be forced to wear black body bags, be forced to marry at age 11 to an old fart, be raped by their brothers and then accused of being a whore and sentenced to hang, or being doused with gasoline and started on fire. Hmmm, difficult choice . . . let me decide. I think you need to review the definition of human rights abuses.
Now let’s talk about ad hominem attacks: it is apparently acceptable for you to call me blind, ignorant, hateful, and a few other things. You also assumed that I lead a sheltered American life and have never met any Muslims. Now who is being foolishly presumptious? I have found that in the PR realm, Muslims excel at projecting their own faults onto others. I see that you continue that tradition on the individual level.
By the way, just for your education, Jews are not a race and they never were. Judaism is a religion, and those who follow it are part of the Jewish Nation, Am Yisrael. So there is no such thing as “mixing in” or being “diluted.”
You really don’t know much about this topic, do you?
And I’m still waiting to hear what Muslims or Islam have contributed to the improvement of the world. Excellence in every field of endeavor, as demonstrated by the Nobel Prizes, does mean something.

AmericanJewess on April 22, 2007 at 2:26 am

” rather I am here engaging you in honest and open debate;”
No, you are being extremely disingenuous; the only other option is that you are very, very ignorant.

AmericanJewess on April 22, 2007 at 2:27 am

“every Jewish country in this world is guilty of human rights abuses; but no one brands Judaism an evil ideology; even if they may express contempt for Jews”
Are you being a huckster here? There is only one Jewish country, yes, and there are no human rights abuses being committed there. There are 22 Islamic countries, and every single one of them is guilty of multiple, extremely aggregious human rights abuses. One Jewish country, 22 Islamic countries. If you were trying to draw a moral equivalence, I hope you see now the absurdity of that. By the way, are you aware that ONLY IN ISRAEL are Muslim honor killings of Arab Israeli women guaranteed to be investigated and prosecuted?
This is what I mean by your being disingenuous.
As for “no one brands Judaism as an evil ideology,” huh? I’m sure many Muslims do! Farrakhan calls it a gutter religion. But that’s beside the point; if Judaism itself is not being attacked worldwide as an evil ideology, it’s because it isn’t, and sometimes even pathological liars find some whoppers too big too sell. And yeah, I know all about Muslims and Muslim sympathizers showing contempt for Jews.
If the average American Muslim is so righteous, tell me why he is doing NOTHING to distance himself from terrorists, honor killings of women, human rights abuses of Christians and Jews and women and children? Why do American Muslims make excuses for the Arab terrorists in Israel, Judea and Samaria? Why have they not organized into mass demonstrations protesting evil? Why have they not picketed in front of mosques that employ extremist imams? If the religion is truly being hijacked by a few, then why haven’t the “many” done something about it?
Maybe because the entire premise that only a few Muslims are bad is a LIE. Maybe because the notion that Islam is being misinterpreted by the extremists is a LIE.
I suspect you are not a born Muslim. Honey, if you converted, you are being duped. All cults know how to practice mind control. They lure you in with sweetness and kindness and gradually take over your thought processes. You can’t even formulate a logical argument.
Learn a little about your new friends:
I urge every reader to visit this site, scroll down to the bottom of the page, where there is an ongoing tally of all the violence in the world committed by Muslims. The list is so big that he can only do three months at a time (check the archives for more).

AmericanJewess on April 22, 2007 at 4:23 am

Debbie, I hope you will do a post on the reaction of South Korea to Cho’s murderous rampage, and compare it to the way the Islamic world reacts when several of their own commit mass murder.
The article in the Jerusalem Post today showed a massively attended vigil in South Korea to honor the victims of the VT massacre, and everyone interviewed stated they felt ashamed of Cho.

AmericanJewess on April 22, 2007 at 4:53 am

Dear Americanjewess,
I never called you blind or ignorant or hateful. I said that if you believed some of the egregious (that’s the correct spelling of the word, by the way) exaggerations and misrepresentations you had made about Muslims then you would be blinded by some of the ignorance you have displayed. As for honor killings, they are all universally condemned by religious scholars as having no basis in Islam; in fact that was one of the things Islam expressly forbade when it came down. The presumption that good Muslims are ignoring large swaths of their religion has no basis in fact and is seemingly just a claim thrown out by you to perpetuate the notion that Islam is evil and is causing the misery of people around the world. There are hundreds of millions of muslims around the world who put into effect Islamic principles because it makes their lives better; I can tell that you are completely unfamiliar with higher Islamic theology; the books put out by Imams about how to live one’s life are unbelievable guidance; on par with St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, and beyond. Yes, there are of course apostates of Islam, that fact is undeniable, however, I believe the vasy majority of those had religion taught to them or implemented in their lives in a largely cultural or traditional fashion. Islam was not taught to them in a purely theological fashion. The very few verses of the Qur’an which some members choose to twist and misuse to justify their actions does not make a religion “evil” as you claim. Many people in the West, in fact, convert to Islam everyday , out of their own accord, having read Islamic texts very thoroughly; are you proposing that these people have been coerced or duped into a religion of “evil”? I suggest, also, that you do more research into the implementation of Shari’a as it is currently implemented in only two countries, not all Islamic countries as you would have some believe. As for Israel being scot-free in the area of human rights abuses, there are many human rights groups who find otherwise, Amnesty, HRW, B’tselem (an Israeli group no less) are just a few who would disagree; I would suggest you read their reports. Further, in fact, honor killings are investigated in Pakistan and Jordan as well. Many Jews (at least many I’ve met here in America) would disagree with you on Jews not being a race, everyone agrees on Jews being of a religion, but given difficulty of conversion, many consider Jews a race as well. If we went by your definition of a Jew (a practicing member of the faith) then your list of Nobel Prize winners would be significantly cut down as many of them would be Jewish only through matrilineal or familial ties; not through overt practice of faith. How many of your Nobel Prize list do you think devoutly practiced Judaism? Average American muslims, do in fact, separate the practice of terrorists, honor killers, and the human rights abuses of Christians and Jews. CAIR issued statemnts post-9/11, post 7/7, and other terrorist attacks condemning them and reaffirming solidarity with Americans. Muslim conferences held here in America every month reaffirm the notion that terrorism has no place in Islam. The many are doing something about it, its just that it goes horribly underreported or more likely unreported by mainstream media sources, so it is certain to not be found here. I appreciate you’re concern for me in believing that I have been “duped” and a cult is practicing “mind control” on me; however my arguments are not lacking logic; rather they are pointing out facts to rebut the points you make; that by the way is called honest and open debate, not being “disingenuous” as you claim. I don’t call you a liar when you make your claims, please I ask the same respect reciprocated. As for your continued, belabored insistence on providing a list of Nobel Prize winners who are Muslims, I still don’t see the point. There are many non-Muslim countries who have not had a single Nobel Prize winner, does that mean their culture or the religion of that nation holds them back? That they are less worthy people of existence than Jews or Christians? That the religion of such a people is less valid than that of Judaism or Christianity? Of course not, so again I still cannot see your point. However, since I imagine you will not let go of your obsession with what Muslim contribution to the world is, I leave you with this small tidbit: The best-selling poet in the world is Rumi, a Sufi Muslim scholar who writes in the vein of Islamic philosophy and higher theology. So evidently, there are many people out there who at least on some level are being “duped” by the “death cult.” You point out a website regarding apostates of Islam, I would encourage you to find a website regarding converted Muslims and find out their reasons for conversion, I am sure you will find their reasons diverse and well thought out. I am glad that you have met many Muslims , although I imagine the vast majority of the Muslims you have met are Israeli Arabs (which number very few). I would encourage you to continue to meet more and garner an even more diverse perspective of this broad faith. Further, as Islam is a faith of one and a half billion and the fastest growing religion; it would be futile and naive to eliminate all Muslims or Islam. Rather, let us focus our efforts on brotherhood and reaching out to one another as much as possible; in that way we can eliminate extremists on both sides. I pray that you, as a jew, and a sister of mine and child of Abraham (pbuh), can one day come to see me not as an enemy, but as a friend.
All the Best.

Serp on April 22, 2007 at 6:42 am

I am sorry , but I should have separated the above into paragraphs, its early in the morning and I will be going to bed. Goodnight.

Serp on April 22, 2007 at 6:53 am

Serp, when Muslims the world over stop trying to deny Jews their teeny weeny little patch of land; when they stop insisting on creating a 23rd state for their fellow Muslim brothers that they REFUSED to resettle after the war, when they agree to resettle those brethren in Jordan, Egypt and Syria rather than use them as pawns in their diabolical plan to eliminate the Jewish state, then I’ll revisit the issue of friendship. When Islam dramatically reforms itself and becomes, truly, a “religion of peace” around the world, rather than one which is notorious for terror and crime, then I’ll revisit the issue of friendship. Until then, I prefer to look honestly and unblinkingly at the facts and the evidence put before me every single day.

AmericanJewess on April 22, 2007 at 6:58 am

How many years did it take Amnesty International to begrudgingly label terrorist attacks by Palestinians on Israelis a human rights abuse?
What about the Jenin massacre that never was?
Here is more about Human Rights Watch:
Sadly, there are two standards practiced by human rights activists: one for Jews, another one for Muslims.
This does not surprise me.

AmericanJewess on April 22, 2007 at 7:08 am

“Further, as Islam is a faith of one and a half billion and the fastest growing religion; it would be futile and naive to eliminate all Muslims or Islam.”
Islam grows quickly for two reasons, neither having to do with the merits of the religion or anyone’s free choice: 1)polygamy and the high birthrate, and 2) conversion by the sword. Islam has a history of violence and forced conversion which continues to the present day. Few people have the conviction to give their lives for Christianity (witness what is happening in various parts of the world today, in Africa and Asia, where Muslims are torturing, beheading, and slaying Christians). Fear helps Islam grow.
In America, where we have freedom of belief, the largest group converting to Islam are black prison convicts. Since “The Man” is either Christian or Jewish, it only makes sense that angry black criminals would want to stick it to “The Man” by adopting an alternative religion. Islam capitalizes on the fact that many black prisoners are undereducated and are not aware of Islam’s past and present role in slave trade, nor do they understand that Arab Muslims hold them, and all other non Arabs, in racist contempt.
American whites who convert to Islam may do so because of marriage, because it seems exotic, because they are disenchanted with Christianity or rebelling against the establishment, or because they rightfully see that secular atheism often leads to moral degeneracy. But Islam does not offer anything in the way of a moral lifestyle that Christianity or Judaism doesn’t already offer, and the latter two do not contain the immoral elements of Islam. Many people are gullible, underinformed, and can’t see the dirty underbelly of this belief system. I have no interest in reading new converts’ testimonies; there are plenty of apostates who went through the conversion process and as far as I’m concerned, they are further along in the process and their testimony is far more relevant. All started out being charmed by certain aspects of Islam that seemed good, but as Dylan would say, “Even Satan sometimes comes as a man of peace.” Many female converts experience their awakening the first time they return to the old country with their husband, and witness him morphing before their eyes into a different animal altogether. Read Phyllis Chesler.
Frankly, I would be content to contain Islam within the Islamic countries. How other people live is none of my concern. I simply don’t want them in MY country, and many citizens of the world are beginning to feel the same way. But if one wanted to eliminate Islam, one needn’t plan on committing genocide to do it; all one needs to do is to work actively to provide people in Islamic nations the opportunity to freely choose their religion. Once they believe they are truly safe, they will throw over Islam in an instant and adopt Christianity, which is a much easier and more loving religion that accepts converts readily. Judaism is a moral religion and also a good choice, though it makes more demands on converts and the congregation would be leery of former Muslims, for good reason. If the human rights activists would actually identify the real enemies of human rights, and fight to uphold the principles they claim to cherish, and fight to protect the true victims of Islam rather than capitulating to multi-culti moral relativism crap, Islam would flicker out overnight. The Islamists know this, hence the reason they keep the sword sharpened.
Thank you Serp, for providing me with such ample opportunity to expose the falseness of your many statements. I do it not to persuade you, but to help any readers here who may be confused by your writings. Prior to 9/11, I, too, believed that Islam was a religion like any other and that Muslims are like anyone else. We Americans are trained from day one to respect other religions, but Islamists exploit that weakness, and Americans are poorly equipped to recognize a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Now is a critical time for everyone to wake up and see the writing on the wall, including Muslims who want a better life.

AmericanJewess on April 22, 2007 at 8:03 am

AmericanJewess posted:
[Since “The Man” is either Christian or Jewish, it only makes sense that angry black criminals would want to stick it to “The Man” by adopting an alternative religion. Islam capitalizes on the fact that many black prisoners are undereducated and are not aware of Islam’s past and present role in slave trade, nor do they understand that Arab Muslims hold them, and all other non Arabs, in racist contempt.]
This is the stupidest thing I’ve read so far in this blog thread. It is irrelevant to the present -day African American male prisoner what role Arab Muslims played in the slave trade since most Africans in the slave trade of yesteryear were abused, maimed, tortured and killed by White Christians (DUH!!!)! In March, Britian celebrated the 200th anniversary of the abolition of slavery. The BBC showed some of the torture devices used by the English and Dutch on slaves. They were so horrific, I can’t bring myself to describe them here. So no, the Black American prisoner is not ignorant of the role of Arab Muslims in the slave trade, but he damn sure knows what White Christians have done to his people for the past 400 years!
And another thing, In a letter by Malcolm X on his trip to Mecca:
“Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and the overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as practiced by people of all colors and races here in this Ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all other prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.”
Remember, this was the early 60’s when American Blacks were being beaten up for wanting equal rights.
The fact is that there’s no difference in principle between the Torah and the Koran. And Christians don’t go around saying that slaves should obey their masters because that’s what the Bible says. So what’s the real difference between Christians, Jews, and Muslims? Islam is going through what Christianity went through over 60 years ago (Remember that European Christians almost wiped out the Jews and American Christians were discriminating against people of color). People of all faiths can believe and obey their holy books, but they must show respect for human rights of all humans. Christianity finally learned its lesson, and Islam must and will do the same.
You’re not going to believe this, but a woman was beaten up for not sitting at the back of a bus. Rosa Parks, 1955, you say? Nope. It’s happening in Israel TODAY!:

Norman Blitzer on April 22, 2007 at 11:46 am

Norman, it’s well known that Arab Muslims are racists. Furthermore, while white Christians have abolished slavery, Arab Muslims have not! Do you dispute that? Because if you do, then it is you who are writing stupid things. Read about Sudan and Mauritania.
American blacks who adopt Islam are ignorant of Islam’s true attitude toward them, and apparently are ignorant of the current Muslim enslavement of their black brothers.
“Islam is a religion, whose sacred scriptures contain explicitly denigrating remarks about Black people. Mohammed referred to Blacks as “raisin heads”. (Sahih Al Bukhary vol. 1, no. 662 and vol. 9, no. 256) In an authenticated Hadith, Mohammed is quoted as saying; “Blacks will steal when hungry, when cloy (full) they are promiscuous”. (Sahih Moslem) In another Hadith, Mohammed is quoted as saying that Blacks are, “pug-nosed slaves”. (Sahih Moslem vol. 9, pgs. 46-47)”
Irshad Manji talks about Arab Muslim prejudice towards blacks in her book, The Trouble With Islam Today. I figure she knows a lot more than either you or I do.
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.

AmericanJewess on April 22, 2007 at 12:08 pm

Oh, and you think the Muslims are only 60 years behind Christianity and Judaism?? Guess again.

AmericanJewess on April 22, 2007 at 12:11 pm

Here Norman, this one’s for you. A Muslim talks about Islam’s treatment of blacks, women, and slaves.

AmericanJewess on April 22, 2007 at 12:34 pm

Another thing about slavery in Islam – Muslims believe God revealed the Qur’an to Mohamed in order to perfect life on earth – to tell us what we’re doing wrong and to forbid those things. The most frequently stated admonition is to “not join partners with God”. Christians are particularly quilty of that every time they pray to Jesus or Mary.
But, did God forbid slavery you ask??? Why, no. No he didn’t. In fact he laid out the rules pretty clearly. For example, a man is supposed to “guard his chastity, except with his wife AND those who his right hand possesses”. Yup, you can rape your slaves.

stevecanuck on April 22, 2007 at 12:35 pm

American Jewess,
Thanks for the linked article. You defenders of islam–wake up! islam is the greatest of all curses on humanity. I will fight against it till the day I die. The best weapon in this fight is exposing the truth.

BB on April 22, 2007 at 2:55 pm

AmericanJewess: Thank you for the information about Islam and racism. Keep up the good work and the good fight!

FreethinkerNY on April 22, 2007 at 3:29 pm

Dear AJ, I am not surprised you quoted NGO monitor, a known Israeli organization with great and many biases against mainstream human rights organizations, a fact you conveniently let go. That aside, Islam does not convert by “the sword” as you put it, people do in fact convert becuase of the merits of the religion because they see in it a Christianity and Judaism perfected. As for you perjured claim that black convicts are the fastest converting population to Islam in America, that may have been true, oh about, 40 years ago, but that dogma is hardly the case anymore. Your quip about many apostates having undergone the conversion process holds little substance; if they have done so, they converted for convenience or some other luxury, not for true genuine reasons. Otherwise, if they had explored the theology to any great degree they would not be apostates or have converted in the first place at all. In any case, they clearly would not have had a good understanding of Islam as a theology, only one imbibed in cultural practices. It is interesting you mention the case of your best friend, who presumably was not Muslim, who married a Syrian muslim. Clearly, this man was not that religious if he married outside of his faith; any norms imposed on her would obviously have been largely cultural. I have no interest in reading Phyllis Chesler, Brigitte Gabriel, or “Not Without My Daughter” all books designed to “expose” the Muslim world as intolerant to females. These books are little more than money-making schemes designed to capitalize on American fear of unknown. “Not Without my Daughter” is an example of the nonsense of such women; it is a book that is ridiculed in academia for its ludicrousness. As for slavery, I would concede that racism is a problem in the Arab world, but its a problem here in the West as well, but no one draws that connection to Christianity. Islam says explicitly that all races and nations are equal before God’s eyes countless times in the Hadith and the Qur’an, that is one of the many reasons why blacks and whites convert to Islam everyday, not because its “exotic” or “disenchantment” or “rebellion.” Your ability to take badly translated hadith or perhaps nonexistent (I didnt see the two hadith you mentioned from Sahih Muslim) is irrelevant. Indeed, going through Sahih Muslims one finds many hadith preaching the value of freeing slaves and the absolute prohibition of treating them badly. The Prophet Muhammad himself freed his slaves and one of them was raised to such an honor that it was said that the sun would not rise without hearing his call to morning prayer. Irshaid Manji, a non-practicing Muslim who hardly ever goes to the mosque to witness so-called racism, is hardly a reliable source for the theological basis of racism because she herself lacks fundamental knowledge and because there is no theological basis for racism. Higher Islamic theologians lay down such incredibly moral principles with which to live one’s life, that it is not hard to believe why people convert to the religion everyday.
You have not “exposed” the “falseness” of my many statements, rather you have simply supplanted them with your own “truth” rather than empirically debate my points; there is a great distinction. Your prejudice is laid clear from one of your last statements in which you say 9/11 made clear to you the true nature of Islam. In other words, if 9/11 did not happen, Islam would have been the way it was, a simple, beneficent relgion. 9/11 did not change the nature of Islam, the theology of Islam has been immutable since its relevation. Nay, I thank you AJ, for exposing the root of your prejudice and allowing those who want peace to recognize the obstacles that must be overcome.
All the Best.

Serp on April 22, 2007 at 9:55 pm

Here in America, all Muslims feel safe, and yet Islam and Muslims are strong. Muslims in America number some 5-7 million and growing; with a large percentage of those 2nd generation. So again, the Islam flickering out overnight holds no water. I have read many apostate testimonies, everything I have read is in line with cultural practice or some personal quirk for leaving the religion, with little to none of it relating to theology or well-thought reasons. One of the large reasons Ayaan Hirsi Ali left Islam was because of female genital mutilation, a practice with no basis in Islam, and a practice unfortunately, which is practiced by many parts of the non-Islamic world. I would again, encourage you to read the testimonies of converts, you will find their reasoning and logic better versed in the theology of Islam and not enconched in cultural practice; these would be better testimonies to read if one wants to learn about Islam then those of apostates. Apostates rarely take the opportunity to view Islam outside of a cultural framework or in unique views, they are often non-religious to begin with or only “socially” religious or they had Islam indoctrinated to them as an absolute personal philosophy instead of one open to interpretation and are thus poor ambassadors of Islam as a theology. Converts demonstrate great logic and though in converting to Islam since doing so requires great commitment and a deep sense of assurance that one is doing the right thing.
As for AI, it has always and consistently labelled suicide attacks against civilians unacceptable, please don’t read everything NGO feeds you, just read the AI website itself. As for the Jenin massacre, again you don’t have to read the NGO, every other human rights organization recognizes the validity of the massacre. No one is picking on Jews; rather if they acquiesced their claim to illegally-occupied land, then human rights organizations would stop pointing out violations of basic Palestinian rights.
All the Best.

Serp on April 22, 2007 at 10:20 pm

Wow Serp, you are peddling a lot of outright lies today.
People convert to religions sincerely, then later gather more data which causes them to re-evaluate their original decision. Your claim that no one would ever leave Islam if they had converted with sincerity in the first place is illogical nonsense.
My friend’s husband didn’t marry outside his faith — my friend converted to Islam prior to their marriage (which required no careful thought, as you claim — they put her in a room and told her to mumble some words and that was that). He prays five times a day and they send their children to Islamic school. Again, you speak of things you know nothing about.
You stated, “In other words, if 9/11 did not happen, Islam would have been the way it was, a simple, beneficent relgion.” God help us all if this is the logic that higher education hones in today’s students. I don’t even know how to respond to this, because you are even less intelligent than I originally thought. If 9/11 hadn’t happened, then the majority of Americans would have continued in their ignorance of the true nature of Islam; you’re right: 9/11 didn’t change Islam, rather, it revealed it for what it is and has always been.
Jenin massacres never happened. Almost everyone, even those who hate Israel, have backed off that now.
Irshad Manji and Aayin Hirsi Ali were raised in religious families and were educated in Islamic schools and Islamic society. They know what they are talking about.
No one except Islamists intent on repressing the truth (that includes some academicians who seats were funded by Saudi Arabia, or didn’t you know that?) would deny the relevance of Not Without My Daughter. That was a true story and Betty Mamoud was interviewed numerous times by journalists. Based on what we know of Iranian society, every single thing she experienced was plausible.
Israelis are not occupying land illegally. It’s the other way around. Arabs from Jordan and Egypt squatted on Jewish land. Jews have lived in the area for centuries before Mo started having his hallucinations. Interesting that “Palestinians” never claimed their national uniqueness prior to the creation of the state of Israel. Prior to that, they were content to be Jordanians and Egyptians.
Serp, you don’t know enough to have this conversation. I’m growing bored with countering outright lies. I can’t guarantee I will respond to you in the future.

AmericanJewess on April 23, 2007 at 1:52 am

Hey Serp
Not that AJ didn’t get you straight, but I for one am SICK of you morons trying to tell us that we misunderstand what islam is. It speaks for itself.
Tell us Serp-ent, that the koran doesn’t proclaim that all Jews are cursed (have left the “straight path”) and as the descendents of swine and apes are to be hated/killed. Tell us the Koran doesn’t command muslims to kill them with such statements like “the tree says: there is a Jew behind me, kill him.”
Don’t bring your SH– in my neighborhood because we aren’t going to allow it–and though we are genuinely tolerant and peace loving in this country–those of us who understand what you and islam are about are going to deal with it.
Plenty of us have had it with muslims using our freedoms against us to….do what? To do like the muslims did after this attack–to say allah forbids us to pray for the infidels–to rejoice and proclaim that more judgment is coming. Then while you come in this site which daily documents what you and your people are about–yet you spray your cheap air freshener over the stench that is islam. No matter how you perfume a pile of SH– it is still going to reek. That is islam.

BB on April 23, 2007 at 7:44 am

BleechersÖyou are so right in your understanding of the Catholic Church, and at the same time so wrong.
ST AUGUSTINE described the world as one ìmassive perditionîÖso your fears of a ìCatholic takeoverî are groundless.
If you think AMERICAN CATHOLIC politicians are going to now start being faithful and co-operating en masse with the Holy See, even when threatened with ex-communication, and change your USA forever, then you have MORE FAITH than all of us.
Keep warning everyone though about the Catholic ChurchÖor rather your caricature of the ChurchÖSedevacantistsÖgood grief!
Donít quote Catholic schismatics who propose the ìchair of Peterî is empty or vacated, and their errant, and incomplete Sedevacantist doctrine. Do not put forth their ìbentî as being the legitimate and official doctrine of the Catholic ChurchÖas it is not.
Be honestÖor you are a bigot.
And to clarify one point for youÖno one attains Heaven, and that final fellowship with God without the work that was done by Christ Jesus, on the Cross.
The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is the central point of HistoryÖfreeing and reconciling, those who came before Him, and those after Him.
The Catholic Church is the divinely ordained dispenser of all grace won by the SonÖand for all timeÖbut there are irregular dispensers, of some of that grace, as well.
So if the Church denies politicians their sacraments, the Church is free to do soÖ
If they wish to be pagans, like you, they are free to be that. But they should not be garnering Catholic votes or support, when they are clearly acting in non-Catholic ways, or even adopting openly hostile, anti-Catholic positions.
You have yourself a good day.

The Canadien on April 23, 2007 at 11:00 am

From Serp:
You must have picked up those verses cookie-cutter from any number of conservative blogs to prove how Islam is a “death-cult” or variation thereof and are now parading them around like global truth about Islam’s mission for the world. I would suggest to you that you actually ask a Muslim scholar about the verses at your local mosque
Two things:
Why should I believe that the local imam would be truthful at all, particularly about aspects of his religion re: Infidels that are anything but flattering;
Why are POV’s that are hostile to Islam ‘conservative’, given that Islam is not only anti-Infidel religions, but also anti woman, anti gay, anti animals, anti art and a whole host of other things?
Sorry, but I know Islamic history – particularly in India, but also elsewhere in the world. I don’t need propagandists like you or my local imam to disabuse myself of people who have gone through Islamic texts, history and laws and come to very logical conclusions. Of course, it won’t fit your multicultural PC template, and if you are a Muslim, it won’t make you feel easy. Well, guess what – Chinese and Tamils in Malaysia who can’t build their own temples/monestaries don’t feel easy either. I am all for creating a climate in Infidel lands that makes Muslims feel compelled to crawl back under the dar ul Islam rocks that they crawled out of.

Infidel Pride on April 23, 2007 at 4:03 pm

It is sad that because of several (and ‘several’ is a small number in a religion of billions) people’s evil crimes, an entire faith is being put to the guillotine.
What is even worse is that people cannot engage in healthy debate, without wishing the other “crawl back under the dar ul Islam rocks that they crawled out of”, or to that effect.
On a final note. To say that “until ‘Muslims’ around the world stop committing crimes”, the ENTIRE faith will continuously be seen as a faith preaching evil to its followers. From my understanding of the Muslim people: They may not be collectively close-knit, well educated, live in 1st world countries or have as many Nobel Peace Prizes as Jews or Christians.. and though it may seem like they (as a collective faith) have not brought anything to the world.. it still does not give people the right to brand them as evil terrorists who want nothing more than the death of all non-believers, or to that effect. It is simply not true.
Why are people on this website and all the posts therein so cruel and quick to judge an entire faith. This is not what Christianity has taught me. Irrespective of everything that has happened in the world, I hold no grudges towards the average Muslim and I do not know why so many people here would? All the injustices in the world should not give us the right to feel this way about an entire faith. Feel what we need to feel towards those who are guilty; that is plausible, completely acceptable and it makes sense… but why be so quick to feel hatred towards people just because of the faith they practice. That, in itself is evil thought and this great country, Christianity and everything good in the world denounces hatred towards a people.. so please, i emplore everyone to stop..

Mofsound on April 24, 2007 at 1:03 pm

.. and read this article to better understand the demographics, beliefs and stereotypes of Muslims and the Arab world: http://www.huntingtonnews.net/columns/070410-patler-comment.html

Mofsound on April 24, 2007 at 1:04 pm

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