June 13, 2007, - 9:21 am

“Prince of Darkness” Cites “Child Appointee” Julie Myers in Bush’s Loss of GOP Prestige

Conservative columnist Robert Novak–long referred to as the “Prince of Darkness” in the Washington press corps–cited Julie L. Myers a/k/a “The ICE Princess” in his weekly nationally syndicated column as the symbol of why President Bush has lost prestige and respect among his dwindling Republican base:

Republican insiders who complain about Bush filling mid-level government vacancies with “children” cite a classic case. The President in September 2005 named Julie L. Myers, then 36 years old, to head U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. She has never been confirmed, amid bipartisan agreement that she lacks the five years of management experience required by statute.
Myers is serving on a recess appointment.

The ICE Princess: Cited by Prince of Darkness as one of Bush Mistakes

(Julie Myers Diet Coke by David Lunde)

For the record, I’m no fan of Bob Novak. While he is usually on target regarding domestic and social issues, he is a self-hating former Jew who is such a supporter of extremist Muslims that he once said on CNN’s “Crossfire” (which he then hosted) that he is a HAMAS supporter.
But regarding The ICE Princess, The Prince of Darkness is right on. As is the rest of his column, this week. I guess it takes a fake Prince to call out a self-anointed Princess.
Julie Myers is the symbol of Bush incompetence and worse. She is the poster child for why we have lost respect for this man. No, the symbol of how this man has squandered any respect he had. 20 million illegal aliens in our midst and counting.
The ICE Princess is the symbol of a lot that is wrong with this Administration. 18 months to go–counting down the minutes.
Speaking of incompetence and disaster, I’ve been getting quite a few reports from the field from various ICE agents who’ve attended the . We’ll post some of those soon.
Keep them coming. Nice to know that a whole summer of the ICE Director of Investigation’s time is not being spent on dealing with stopping illegal aliens, but with stopping me. Hmmm . . . The Prince of Darkness should have added Peppermint Patty to his column

ICE Backstage Pass by David Lunde

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57 Responses

A bunch of ILLEGAL ALIENS just won their lawsuit against Westchester, NY, disallowing the police to even ask about their “immigration” status. And, the city gets to pay their $500,000 legal bill! What kind of traitor-attorney would instigate a lawsuit like this? You know the illegals didn’t think of it themselves, they don’t even speak our language! And of course, a FEDERAL JUDGE sides with invaders to our country. Something has to be done about all the traitors in our midst.

steve ventry on June 13, 2007 at 10:05 am

But, seriously, now – my sources in Miami are giving me real time info that Julie’s appearance at the SAC office there is turning into nothing short of a circus – FPS marked units everywhere and SRT on perimeter, and for what? A 2nd rate wannabe who can’t even get past Senate committee and is still acting under a recess appointment? What is she afraid of – her OWN agents? PUH-LEEZE !!! The Orejuela brothers (of Cali Cartel fame) probably got less security when they were extradited to Miami than she’s getting today. PATHETIC !!!
And, I’m hearing the parking lot at the SAC Miami is pretty full, and everyone and their mother is there in their Sunday best. Again, PUH-LEEZE !!! People actually respect this woman enough to show up in force for a bulls**t PR appearance? No wonder no other agency has any respect for us – WE HAVE NO RESPECT FOUR OURSELVES !!! I think we’d be better served today if people went about their business doing the L-rd’s work (i.e. catching criminals) than tripping over each other trying to get her a Diet Coke.

4EVERCUSTOMS on June 13, 2007 at 1:54 pm

Novak is one of the most vile in side the beltway Washingtonians out there. He has a place in hell reserved just for him.

Ripper on June 13, 2007 at 3:56 pm

I’m gonna grab some popcorn before “evervigilantlapdoggy” chides in again…

Cracked_ICE on June 13, 2007 at 3:59 pm

Wouldn’t want to disappoint you. Got your popcorn?
I only logged on here because I can’t seem to get the archive thread to open, so I could respond to some of the nonsense posted there.
I don’t really see much here worthy of responding to.
Novak really didn’t say anything new. We all know AS Meyers hasn’t yet been confirmed by the U.S. Senate. Of course because he took Debbie Schlussel’s point of view, she writes about it. Predictable.
My guess is FPS didn’t want to be left out of the “dog and pony” show down in Miami, which is why they’re out in force. Don’t know why you’d use SRT for this.
We’ve had a couple of visits from AS Meyers and she didn’t want any security at all.
We still put a detail out there, for she isn’t going to get hurt on our watch and turf, but it wasn’t because she wanted it.
We did the same thing for the Commissioner of Customs when he visited (back in the day) and we’d get all the troops together so he could visit with them. What’s new about any of this?
You guys are reaching here.

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 13, 2007 at 6:07 pm

Some may call my prior comments “reaching”, but it is a known fact that AS Myers is somewhat full of herself, and has had nothing to fall back upon than her family connections to get her to where she is right now.
All she needed was a small (4 or 5) contingent of HQ/Miami SAs to get her around Miami; if she was really insistent on a low-key visit, she could have done what Ms. Forman did when she visited Miami in February – come unannounced and incognito, according to my sources there; most people wouldn’t know Ms. Myers from a hole in the wall.
Simply put, a little humility would go a LONG way with the field agents right now given her crippled position, rather than the “dog and pony” show so correctly refferd to in a previous post.
Believe you me, AS Myers is no Von Raab, Hallet or Bonner, and should act commensurate with her station in life – A wannabe AS who will NEVER be confirmed in her own right, and will most likely fade away unnoticed at the end of 2007, leaving agents with an acting AS for some 15 or so months until the next president appoints someone to the position, if they can find anyone who wants this thankless job.

4EVERCUSTOMS on June 13, 2007 at 6:52 pm

I was merely pointing out to you that gathering the troops for an all-hands meeting, or townhall meeting wouldn’t be unusual, and she doesn’t typically ask for any security, much less the full blown type, you reported here.
I’m not going to spend any energy defending AS Myers.
We can’t affect who the President appoints as the Assistant Secretary, and I’m not going to lose any sleep over this one, the last one, or the next one. Doesn’t impact my job satisfaction one iota.
Gives you something to talk about though doesn’t it?

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 13, 2007 at 7:41 pm

It’s everliving lapdog! Why, I was just commenting on the other thread about what a pompous egomaniac you were, and look! You’re back to pontificate yet again. Quelle surpris! Can you find nothing better to do? Don’t you have some minions to admonish or something? Oh, I forgot, they all love you because you are you. Keep writing and believing your own press!

q2thecore on June 13, 2007 at 7:46 pm

Appears you don’t have anything better to do either? Do you lurk here all day, just waiting for someone smarther than you to bash, because in this virtual world you are a big tough guy?
I notice you never have anything to contribute. Why is that?
So sad.

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 13, 2007 at 7:52 pm

“EVS” …
First of all, I think a lot of what I have to say is relevant and professional, and well worth my time.
The visit to Miami today is less about Myers than about the office she holds. When Mike Garcia took the helm in 2003, he at least had the decency (for as incompetent as he was) to at least visit Miami within his first 6 months as A.S., which is a MAJOR SAC office and mingle with the people there.
Ms. Myers waited until now (2007), almost 2 full years since her initial nomination and almost 18 months since her infamous recess appointment, to visit the troops – I understand from some of my sources she’s been to some SAC offices 3 and 4 times since becoming A.S. !!!
My sources tell me the reason she did this was because she and Ms. Forman had it in for senior managers in Miami and wanted to wait until Ms. Forman “cleaned house” this past March/April (which she did after an impromptu visit in February, in which she informed field agents, in an egregious lack of protocol, that was her intention).
So, you see, the A.S. office “punished” the field agents in Miami by not even paying a single visit there for almost two years because of their little “tete-a-tete” with management. Disingenuous, don’t you think? If I were in Miami today, I wouldn’t give a rat’s ass if Mr. Chertoff and President Bush were in town; they don’t even deserve the time of day for what they did to this agency and how much like bastard stepchildren they’ve treated all ICE agents like since the agency’s inception in 2003.
It’s like a parent who beats their kid all their life, then expects a hug on their deathbed – pretty sad, and pretty lame.

4EVERCUSTOMS on June 13, 2007 at 8:53 pm

Thatís funny, but I recall posing some hard questions to you, the person who purports to be in the know and said heíd take on all-comers. You ignored them and showed me the door. Whoís the self-edifying preacher? Ask the other agents here and theyíll tell you. Except for your alter-ego CellarDweller. About time for him to make an appearanceÖ.
As far as the ‘tough guy’, you threatened to beat down a Rastaman once, as I recall and you are always coming off like you are ‘all that’, speaking of ‘your people’ n’ stuff. Politic safe, EVS. Pitiful.

q2thecore on June 13, 2007 at 8:58 pm

Bob Novak converted to Catholicism, but I don’t think that converting to Catholicism alone makes him a “self-hating Jew.” There have been many Jews who have converted to Catholicism and yet fully consider themselves Jewish in culture. In fact they even dispute the term “convert” used in this case. Roy Schoeman, Catholic himself, but fully considering himself a Jew, has written about this in his excellent book Salvation is from the Jews.

Gabe on June 13, 2007 at 9:27 pm

I wasn’t speaking to you, but to q2thecore, re: lack of anything to contribute. It appears that all he wants to do is poke at me for some reason, without bringing anything substantive to the table. Opposing views frighten some I suppose.
If the AS waited 2 years to visit the SAC/Miami as you say, I’d agree it’s wrong.
We’re still waiting for a visit from Secretary Chertoff, but we’re not holding our breath. He’s been in our city a number of times, but do you think he has time for ICE? Nahhh, he’s too busy.
We feel, exactly as you do as far as this goes.
It all goes back to leadership, or lack of leadership. These people at DHS may be plenty smart, but they have a lot to learn about leadership in this man’s opinion.
Now for q2thcore. I can’t access the previous thread that we were previously contributing to. If you’d like to cut and paste your questions here, I’ll try to answer them. I haven’t dodged any legitimate questions yet.
However, if you just want to make up and call me silly names, you are wasting your time. If you want to communicate, do so, otherwise you’ll be ignored.

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 13, 2007 at 9:36 pm

Awfergawdsake! I repeated myself enough. I’ll not keep humoring you and feeding your insatiable ego. I’m tired of being talked down to by Ever-self-gratifying-lapdog. BTW, who says I’m a ‘he’? B-bye. Hold court for people who care. Kiss-a$$ safe, EVS.

q2thecore on June 13, 2007 at 10:04 pm

If you are scared, say you are scared q2!
We won’t laugh (too hard). LOL

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 13, 2007 at 10:11 pm

I was unable to determine if you responded to my last post. If you did, would you be so kind as to repeat it again here?
True American

True American on June 13, 2007 at 11:04 pm

Jesus Fucking Christ, it is pathetic to read some of the comments here. This is my first post here, and I guarantee it won’t lead to many more, but get out in the field people and work. Stop bitching on a fucking message board about our problems. And you people wonder why we get very little respect in the FLEO world these days….

HR24 on June 13, 2007 at 11:14 pm

“We’ve had a couple of visits from AS Meyers and she didn’t want any security at all.
We still put a detail out there, for she isn’t going to get hurt on our watch and turf, but it wasn’t because she wanted it.
We did the same thing for the Commissioner of Customs when he visited (back in the day) and we’d get all the troops together so he could visit with them.” EVS
Who the Muck is “we”? Take that mouse out of your pocket and get back on your meds.
As much as it pains me to admit, this loser EVS is not an ICE suit. He’s a NUT. PERIOD. There is no way in hell that EVS is in a position of authority in ICE. Apparently, even Marcy thinks he’s a psycho. At most, EVS is some off the reservation small town Group Supervisor or RA in need of medication. More than likely. EVS is some retired whack job with way too much time on his hands. “WE” need to ignore this attention whore.

JaxBeachBum on June 13, 2007 at 11:26 pm

Sac Los Angeles to have a half day managers meeting tomorrow. everyone is talking about it. It is to be a funnnnnn meeting. unknown if anyone will actually get their ass kicked. Nancy Drew, Nancy’s new BFF, The Hardy Boy, and the Hardy Boy’s own ASAC Eddie Haskell (his hand holder, who is always by Hardy Boy’s side when THB speaks to the troops), will be speaking and sharing some of their wisdom, thoughts and desires.

rivfedup on June 14, 2007 at 2:59 am

for a laugh, take a look at the ICE homepage portal. It announces a ICE 101 event in HQ that all ICE employees should attend. Except, it says space is limited to 75 applicants. Didn’t know we were that small of an agency. That must be why there are 12 million illegal aliens in the country. There’s only 75 of us to stave them off.

rivfedup on June 14, 2007 at 3:04 am

If you’ve read other comments on DS site you would know that there are some people reading and responding to this site, that present their point of view in a thoughtful and passionate manner.
And then there are the “coconuts” who just have to chime in, but have nothing of substance to contribute.
They simply take shots at whoever takes exception to the “group think” going on here, so they can point out to their buddies tomorrow that they are “giving them hell” on the blog. Pitiful really.
It won’t take you long to figure out who’s who.
I’m going to do my best to ignore the insignificant bottle throwers (you know who you are) and focus on responding to people who have something to say.

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 14, 2007 at 6:32 am

I’ve read EVS’s comments starting with the now-archived thread. I got the sense that when he started commenting, he was someone enlightened as to the thinking behind some of the decisions and memos out of the inner sanctum of OI headquarters. Although I never bought into it, my perception was that he was making a decent attempt to encourage the ICE readers here to give their leadership a chance, pull together, and to stop fragging each other. My perception now is that his comments have degenerated to the point where he is simply picking up the shitbombs being lobbed his way and throwing them back. If he is speaking as or for senior ICE management, his comments have confirmed my own personal opinion that this agency is being by managed by people who couldn’t run the corner halal stand, yet they are genuinely pissed off because no Fortune 500 companies are recruiting them for CEO positions. As Rush likes to say, they are glittering jewels of colossal ignorance. All we can do is try to stay out of their way and off the fecal roster. Not an easy task.

AynaydaPizaqvick on June 14, 2007 at 8:24 am

Let’s see here…HR24 wants us to “quit bitching on a message board about our problems.” So this is your first post? Please make it your last because it’s quite evident you have no clue regarding the severity of the troubles and discord in this agency or you’ve been smoking management’s pole so long your head is clouded. We’re not the laughing stock of every FLEO as a result of posting our insight on this page…it’s because of the inept, hypocritical, egomaniacal “leaders” we have. Since the inception of this agency post 9/11, it’s been nothing short of an abysmal failure. I want to come in to work and do my job; it’s simply more difficult to accomplish when I have to spend half my working hours ensuring I follow all the creampuff, bullshit directives regarding earrings in the workplace, monthly mileage reports for vehicles, and nonsensical crap. Let’s not forget we can’t step on the toes or violate the rights of the very dirtballs we’re supposed to be investigating and arresting.

1shot1kill on June 14, 2007 at 8:39 am

The earlier threads (discussing the possible demise of legacy customs authorities) actually had nuggets of information in them ? whether they were rumor or not, that was for the reader to ponder. Seems the tone has changed with EVS? arrival. Whether he is a mouthpiece for mgmt or trying to maintain a stiff upper lip doesn?t really matter. Can anyone in the know credibly comment on the loss of any ? I repeat any ? authorities out of OI? A while back someone commented ??have it on good authority that whatever will happen will happen by the end of the fiscal year? ? can the original poster or better yet – DEBBIE – expand on intel they have regarding the future look of OI?

onthedole on June 14, 2007 at 9:03 am

I’m a basic field agent, I’m guessing just like you, who came from the Legacy Customs side and am now buried in this ICE debacle. So, you can take your management comment, lube it up with some vaseline and wedge up your vise-gripped ass.
I am well aware of this mess we are in as I fall underneath a SAC office which is so limp dicked they can’t fathom the aspect of an international case. Fucking pity, seeing as my office is currently working under a CUC Op and we have numerious viable foreign targets. Our CA’s are on board, along with the respective foreign agencies, but the upper hands at our SAC can’t pull the trigger.
The only person I’ve seen provide any worthy comments here is 4EVERCUSTOMS. His comments at least provide a shred of info with which to go on. The rest is a bunch of mudslinging which doesn’t get us anywhere. I don’t walk the rah-rah line that EVS walks and I have zero respect for that twit Myers and her bulldog Forman. We have shit management, but the only way we are going to gain respect is if we are out there making good cases (i.e. dope, money laundering, IPR, BMPE, and ASTI).

HR24 on June 14, 2007 at 9:32 am

Why don’t you pound it up your legacy Customs ass because, you fucking pinhead, it’s no secret the MAJORITY of ICE management, from Marcy on down, came from the legacy Customs side of the fence. Granted, legacy INS and the great immigration fiasco is nothing to write home about; I’ll be one of the first to tell you it’s a cluster, but let’s get down to the nut-cutting. All this “special emphasis” is put on WSE, CUC, Child Porn, and other investigations but the agents are consistently hampered because of all the hoops, papal blessings, and congressional approvals one has to weather to get the OK to do the damn job. All this PC, redtape bullshit coming out of HQ makes you want to puke. I’ve made good cases but I’ve had to fight my ass off to get it done. Most time I do it and wait for the fallout later. 4EVERCUSTOMS does put good information out there but guess what?…he’s not telling me or anyone else out there who’s been in the middle of this shitfest anything we don’t already know. I’m far from a company liner, I don’t kiss anyone’s ass, my knees have no scars on them and you won’t find a glazed doughnut look on my face EVER! So, don’t jump in my shit and tell me to “lube it up with some vaseline and wedge up your vise-gripped ass.” I’ll rip your head off and shit down your neck! It’s your legacy lunatics that are fucking up this agency!

1shot1kill on June 14, 2007 at 10:32 am

There may be a group of legacy Customs mangers in positions of power, however, the initial AS was Michael Garcia, the former INS boss. It should have been evident to everyone that OI was not going to be as important as the uniform side of the house when Garcia became the OI boss. The struggle to maintain authority and identity started on that day.
We are seeing and experiencing the effects of legacy INS thinking and behavior. The budget runs in the red every quarter, bills allegedly aren’t being paid in a timely fashion, the procurement process is not as effective as it was under Treasury and so on.
Yes, there are Customs managers in the food chain at HQ, but a great percentage of policies and thinking are INS.

mgofca on June 14, 2007 at 12:36 pm

Gimme a break 1squirt. Your head and neck comment is cliched to the bone. Not to mention talking tough on the Internet leaves me trembling uncontrollably…..with laughter.
I think mgofca makes a good point with the budget runs. There is no doubt that the managers in place now are former Customs guys, and the majority of them are diploma carrying douche-bags. It’s the G and it’s full of them. You come to expect it, but just not this bad. All in all, the old INS thinking has infected this agency to the core and it’s dying at a drastically fast rate. I just hate being on the ship as it’s going down.

HR24 on June 14, 2007 at 1:25 pm

Well HR24, I don’t have that problem of letting my mouth write checks my ass can’t cash unlike you self-appointed “Masters of the OI”. I don’t talk shit I can’t back up…you tell us all to shut up and get back to work?! Who the fuck are you?
As far as mgofca is concerned, yea, I agree the old INS policies suck and it’s quite evident we suffer from it. Question is, if that be the case and now all the saviors from legacy customs are in powerhouse positions, why hasn’t it changed? Don’t have to search long or far for that answer.

1shot1kill on June 14, 2007 at 3:43 pm

All this “us and them” in-fighting is so damn unproductive. Someone said it earlier; bring the good cases to the table, and respect will be be earned.
The ICE budget is better now than it’s been in four years. We’re traveling for training and conferences again, and our vehicle fleet is as good as I remember it ever being. These are the FACTS!
No doubt we still have some work to do, but if everyone pulls in the same direction, it’ll sure make the job easier.
There is no question that WSE cases draw more heat from HQS, it’s the political hot potato of the day.
But at the end of the day, it’s just another criminal investigation, that all of us should know how to conduct. Yeah we have HQS breathing down our necks, but it doesn’t mean we can’t make the case. We just have to make sure we have all the i’s dotted and the t’s crossed.
No problem.
You shouldn’t stop working the other priority areas either. You work the good cases, and everyone will have to run to keep up.
You said “Can anyone in the know credibly comment on the loss of any ? I repeat any ? authorities out of OI”
I know that the rumored loss of Customs authorities is simply a false rumor.
There is no factual basis to it, though Debbie Schlussel did report it as fact some time back and there are those that think because they saw it here, it must be true. WRONG!!
I think she’s getting her information from a bunch of overheard conversations in HQS, that is reported out to “sky is falling” crowd in the field. I’ll repeat it again, it is not true!
ICE will retain all of it’s legacy Customs and INS authorities, and with any luck at all, we’ll obtain independenty/statutory Title 21 authority in the near future.
Work safe,

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 14, 2007 at 3:56 pm

These posts always make for interesting reading. I was originally drawn here not because of the criticisms of ICE management, but the eviscerating of legacy INS agents by legacy Customs posters, as if we were to blame for the merger and all its associated problems. Iím glad to see that in general, the insults and blaming have died down.
Look, letís start in the beginning and agree that the people who cobbled DHS together on their management diorama were well intentioned, but ill-informed. But what do you expect from an administration that told us we could get away with 70,000 troops and $40 billion in Iraq? It was policy makers with very little subject matter expertise in the areas of running these agencies that made the decisions. On paper, their thinking was sound, we were hurt and threatened by aliens who used things to terrorize us. So why not merge the agency that dealt with the entry of aliens that would harm us (INS) with the agency that controls the entry of things that may do harm (Customs)? While they claim to have known the merger would be difficult and take time, they didnít understand the hallmarks that made USCS successful: its organizational structure, cooperation between institutional elements and esprit di corps. Unfortunately, that was of course ruptured in the creation of DHS. However, it is ICE now, the ship has sailed and there is likely no turning back.
Iím still pretty positive about what this agency can accomplish, and I donít think people posting their complaints here means they are ìdisgruntledî. What it means to me is that you care passionately, because we all put so much of ourselves into this job. And whatever people think of top ICE career managers (not the AS), they have only a limited ability to set the direction of the agency. I mean really, do people honestly think that a couple of Customs veterans like Clark and Forman want WSE to be so high profile and dope cases to be taking a back seat? Who do you think wants this to happen? It is this administration and guess what? The executive branch runs agencies like ours, and career employees have to march in the direction that our political leaders point. Now the question is, given the tone set by the administration, can our leadership do better. The answer is yes.
I take great exception however to EVS and the almost religious reverence he bestows upon Forman, especially this quote:
ìMarcy and John are doing the lords work on the seventh floor, and anyone that doesn’t believe this needs to spend a little time up there. ì
Well isnít that great they (and apparently you) have been tapped by God to carry out His mission here on earth. There are many reasons that Director Forman is reviled by most of the rank and file and management, and isnít just because of the course she sets for OI. Itís the style and manner in which she treats subordinates. No, not those like you EVS, who are in good graces, but anyone else that would have the audacity to present an idea contrary to hers. Itís also the fact that she holds personal control and final authority over every single promotion to a supervisory position and the reassignment/transfer of agents in the field. That is crippling to morale, field agents are furious they canít transfer when another SAC and agent are willing and able to move. By holding that authority over these appointments, especially HQ agents whoíve completed tours, the Director has a power which she greatly misuses. I personally know of several very effective and hard working managers that have been hurt by this policy. But I bet you got to go where you wanted EVS.
And EVS, people with your thinking are why EEO violations exist and will continue to occur. I agree with you that most filers are out to make a preemptive strike to cover for their poor performance and/or behavior, but even more people donít file because they donít want the stigma. This creates a permissive environment where people can get away with discriminatory practices. By you as a manager not taking this seriously, you are ignoring a responsibility. I personally have seen and heard racially, sexually and ethnically discriminatory comments and behavior throughout my career, most done while not in the presence of the derided group. Some of these people were or have become management. So you see, this bigoted mindset exists still, and informs the decisions that mangers make. And if you were to say youíve never heard people in your career make these comments, youíre either deaf or lying.
While you probably wonít find many people more positive about what we can do as an agency, sycophants like EVS worry me. This group of nodding, smiling yes-men and women is not what the public needs. We need people who have candor and are not afraid to give their opinions, and a top management corps that would facilitate that environment. And finally, EVS, you have made numerous posts as if you are speaking to children. Even the frustrated posters using profanity here arenít children, they are angry adults, and feel so with some justification. The most juvenile comments have come from you and your ìalpha dogî and ìyou wouldnít say that to me in personî comments. Do you really think you are the only tough guy in this agency? There are people here posting (not me) that have faced death from illness to war, do you think theyíd be worried to deal with you? You are a man who is used to being in authority, and by the sound of your comments, used that and your physical nature to intimidate. Share your comments, but please spare everyone your self-righteous tone and comments about how people wouldnít face you in person.
Yes, this is a long post, but I wrote it last night and edited and inserted it today, so I wasnít chewing up tax dollars on duty time.

Staypositive on June 14, 2007 at 3:57 pm

Does it really matter who is legacy Customs or Legacy I&NS? We are all wandering the wastelands together. Besides, if you actually took the time to talk with and develop your brethren from the “other” legacy agency you’d probably find a pretty damned good person and investigator. We all pretty much came into federal law enforcement to do the same thing. So why do we just keeping tossing the grenades? Neither are going anywhere anytime soon. So lets try to be a united front and force and keep each other’s backs.
My sources in the SAC Miami office assure me that Julie had just two agents from the SAC Miami drive her from the airport, then to FIU for the return of the stolen artifacts, then to the SAC office where she gave out some 30 year pins and answered questions in politician-speak. NOTHING CONCRETE at all. But no SRT convoy and 12 member security detail. Really a non-event, and what does it matter? Does it unf–k us any faster? Don’t think so.
Congress has to do it, and we have to be better. Stay calm, and reasoned and intelligent in your arguements. Not sugar coating or ass-kissing, but state the problem, offer solutions and press for answers without the anger, or we get nowhere. Still might get nowhere, but hard to dismiss you as a jerk.
The point about Julie’s visit is that there’s a lot of disinformation and the “I know a guy, who knows a guy, who went to the academy with a guy in the fraud group in Miami who said…..” And most of it is bullshit and pissed off people stoking the angry fires. It doesn’t help. And we can’t rely on that and then restate it as if it’s gospel and repeat it here. That’s wrong.
We need answers from HQ and our management. It’s long overdue! As to the legacy authorities. I can state categorically that we have lost a lot of ground. FBI can throw the terror blanket over ANY of our cases and shut us down. They are making a huge push in ASTI investigations and Arms Export Control Act cases. They are working with DEA on narcotics cases, heroin cases, so obviously a nexxus with the border and we are nowhere to be found. It’s time for someone to expond at great length on the push-back at HQ and what is REALLY going to become of ICE during the next fiscal year. The turd throwing isn’t helping anyone.

zambonifed on June 14, 2007 at 4:07 pm

I appreciate the tone of your post, but must disagree with you on a number of points, as it relates to me.
You said “And EVS, people with your thinking are why EEO violations exist and will continue to occur. ” How do you make this quantum leap sir? If you actually read any of my posts, you will see that I preach treating everyone fairly (not equally) and with respect. I talk the talk, and I walk the walk. This sir, is why people in my AOR don’t file EEO’s as a rule.
How does that equate to “people with your thinking are why EEO violations exist”? You don’t know anything about me other than what I’ve shared on this forum. How dare you accuse me of this?
“I agree with you that most filers are out to make a preemptive strike to cover for their poor performance and/or behavior, but even more people don?t file because they don?t want the stigma. This creates a permissive environment where people can get away with discriminatory practices. By you as a manager not taking this seriously, you are ignoring a responsibility.”
I’m not following your logic at all. More people don’t file because they don’t want the stigma? The stigma of being an EEO filer? I think you are way off base.
“sycophants like EVS worry me”
Again sir, you don’t know me. If you did, you’d never call me a “yes man”. That’s laughable.
I logged onto this site initally because I was tired of people taking cheap shots at good people who are trying to do the right thing. You might disagree with this, and that’s fine. I think I’m right.
I think this agency will one day be the strong, positve agency that Customs once was.
I’ll be damned if I’ll stand by, and remain silent while people spread rumors and throw rocks at people that can’t defend themselves.
“And finally, EVS, you have made numerous posts as if you are speaking to children. Even the frustrated posters using profanity here aren?t children, they are angry adults, and feel so with some justification.”
I’ll admit I’ve fought fire with fire a few times on here, but I’ve tried to stay on the high road, to the extent that has been possible. But I’m not your boss, or their boss, just another and differing perspective on a blog. I’ve tried to remain respectful of differing opinions, offering my perespective on various issues. What do I get for it? More silly names and insults. It’s OK though, because everyone’s entitled to an opinion.
I think zambonifed has the right idea. We do need answers from HQS and our management. FBI took some ground early on (Greenquest), but any talk about them taking more is just talk.
I agree that Director Forman should speak to this, and I think she’ll be doing this at the townhall meetings she’s having. People should ask the questions, when you get a chance.
Do it respectfully, and maybe you’ll be surprised with the answer.
“The turd throwing isn’t helping anyone”. Amen

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 14, 2007 at 5:09 pm

I was attending the AFFI class a few years back in 2004 and Forman payed us a visit. This was a class which contained agents all with at least 2 years experience and all solid investigators.
I asked a simple question, respectfully, regarding ICE duty weapons and got my head bit off. And I wasn’t the only one that day and there were many valid questions raised that day. Needless to say, Forman hasn’t been on my BFF list since. Her actions as DOI has done nothing to improve her standing with me.
IMHO, she is a terrible leader and a shit person. She can’t go soon enough.

HR24 on June 14, 2007 at 5:20 pm

Your experience from three years ago, formed your opinion of her. I wasn’t there, and trust that you are representing what happened accurately. You are entitled to your views.
I’m interested in your question, and her answer if you can remember the specifics?
I doubt she knows a whole lot about our duty weapons, or how they came to be chosen, and I’ve been after them to bring back the .45 caliber round for years, but my pleas always fall on deaf ears I’m afraid. I detest the 9mm round, and the .40 still isn’t big enough for my liking.
I’ve been around Marcy Forman quite a bit over the past few years, not day in and day out mind you, but a good deal of interaction.
I have seen her at her best, and sometimes when she wasn’t on her game.
I know she’s under a ton of stress, from the front office, and from the field. I’ve seen her when she’s running from one meeting with the A/S or DAS, to another meeting on the hill. I’ve seen her wheel a ton of crap out to her car, to read at home, after a 12 hour day, so she’s ready to go the next day.
I’ve also seen her during some lighter moments too, when she’s kidding with her staff members, or SAC’s, or thanking someone for something they’ve accomplished.
She may not be a terrific communicator, but I know she is working extremely hard, as is everyone on her staff, attempting to make ICE better.
Could she do better? You bet. She isn’t perfect, but she’s damn sure giving it her all, and I think that’s all any of us can ask of our leaders.
I think saying she is “a terrible leader and a shit person” is way over the top.
Can you really form an opinion about what kind of person someone is in one brief encounter?
You might decide you don’t like her because she “bit your head off”, but a “shit person”? I just don’t think that is fair.
And no, for the record, she didn’t promote me, or move me to where I wanted to be as some will almost surely say.

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 14, 2007 at 6:51 pm

Someone take the needle off of the broken record, please. Don’t give us that “it’s so lonely at the top” b.s. She gets paid handsomely to run this outfit, so you know where sympathy can be found in the dictionary…Perhaps you are Marcy. You have to be ’cause she’s the only one who likes her(self). Cut the bootlickin’ crizznap, Everliving lapdog. Thanks for calling a punk a punk Staypositive. Please stick around. EVS grows tiresome after a while with his “Marcy works hard for the money” rhetoric.

q2thecore on June 14, 2007 at 8:01 pm

Legacy INS and Customs agents are Bahutus and Watusis, they can all make nice and be cordial together but one always, deep down whether he or she will admit it in public, thinks they are better that the other. It’s been a bloodbath.
I doubt Marci or anyone else at ICE knows the real story about the ICE handgun purchase, investigative reporters at one of the world’s most respected newspapers had the story killed by stockholders who pressured the editors to kill it. One of these days, I’ll get up enough courage to ask for the information, maybe at low tide.
The flying feathers over the AS’s security is way off the mark, not even close, so move on unless you want to show everyone how uninformed you are with ICE matters.
Screw that stupid email about sheepdogs, ICE agents are tigers. The local police (bobcats) will not and cannot assist them, the media (hyenas) laugh at them hoping for an easy meal, the politicians/lawyers (poachers) hunt them while claiming to protect them as game wardens. It’s just tigers in the jungle, some of which have a nasty rash that made their hair fallout making them especially cranky tigers. Oops! Almost forgot the FBI (SNAKES).

code7 on June 14, 2007 at 8:18 pm

I’m providing a perspective that you will never have sir. Some people are interested in it, others like you are not.
I’m sure glad you weighed in with your words of wisdom. I believe you helped me make the point that I was trying to make to Staypositive.
But I’m the “bad guy” on this board.
Simply Amazing…

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 14, 2007 at 8:20 pm

The last post had nothing to do with you, it was in reference to an email making the rounds making an analogy about sheepdogs, relax, no insult intended. I had a real sheep dog as a kid the analogy just doesn’t work for me, that’s all.

code7 on June 14, 2007 at 10:24 pm

I consider myself a pretty good judge of character. I consider the fact that she was speaking to a group of field agents, not trainees or children, but men and women who go out everyday and do the job as waying heavily on my judgement. It was a scheduled visit, so she knew it was coming down the pipe in advance. If she can’t stand in front of a good sampling of her troops and field pointed questions with the same level of respect given by those who are asking them, then I don’t respect her as a leader.
Sorry mate, just my opinion.

HR24 on June 14, 2007 at 10:28 pm

Let me explain my last post:
If a pack of wolves attacks the flock and I say, “Stay”. The dog stays, I’m her master, I feed her, the flock’s welfare is second, she doesn’t question that command. The sheepdog is the perfect political animal. Cats on the otherhand do what ever they want, except at dinner time (payday).

code7 on June 14, 2007 at 10:41 pm

I know you are trying to be thoughtful in your responses. You being a contrarian to the prevailing view here doesn’t make you the bad guy. I think from the responses I’ve read it is your support for the Director, which you stated was your goal when posting, which has made you the “bad guy” to some here.
What you’ve shared on this forum DOES provide a window into your thinking. I believe you when you say that in your actions you treat people fairly, or you are trying to do so. But you also stated in an earlier post (if I remember correctly) that legitimate EEO complaints may exist, but that you’ve never seen one. You also gave your opinion on a file once for free, pay the second time (if you lose again) system. That sir, would be a chilling system. I’m paraphrasing your views here, and I hope accurately because I no longer have access to the archive posts. But I believe your views trivialize real problems (though rare) that do exist. That is why I “dare” to say that managers of your type perpetuate these environments where violations exist.
Now, being a white able-bodied male below fifty, I frankly have not had the need to personally avail myself of the remedies available, but I know people that have. And I have been in the government for years, both in management and as an employee in multiple agencies. I know what happens in the opinion of management after someone files a grievance or EEO complaint. Even when management agrees with the grieving employee, that employee (who may at times be a manager himself) will walk away with a reputation as a whiner, complainer or disgruntled individual. So yes, there is a stigma. If you are ever on the receiving end of some discriminatory treatment (it might be age based), see an EEO attorney. The first thing they’ll tell you is “Are you sure about this, because even if/when we win, your career will be damaged”. That is the stigma I refer to, and I hope you understand my logic. It is a logic based in fact and experience.
I haven’t heard anyone here ever accuse the Director of being lazy. I know she puts in 70+ hours a week and works very hard, so do a lot of people. That doesn’t mean that since she works hard the policies she lays out, tone she sets and manner in which she treats people is right.
You may have a point in challenging my yes-man comment, I only know you from what I have read here. But you claim to have been a member of the Director’s leadership team for several years, and I haven’t seen, heard, nor heard of anyone in her circle standing firm on a contrary issue that wasn’t later marginalized out. Some of those that left rather than continue to work under her were a great loss to ICE. You may not share that opinion however.
We are also losing agents at the SAC level, to DRO, ATF, DOE, various OIG’s etc. The message the Director has put out is, “you leave and you’re not coming back” . That’s great, so now we’re going to have to train up a rookie rather than take a seasoned agent back who has realized the grass isn’t always greener.
I’m not going to convince you that the Director is doing a horrible job, and I’m not trying. What I am trying to do is show you some of the reasons why people here, like me, believe the way the Director is conducting her job is hurting the agency. Sadly, most of the field agents have this negative view, not just those stone-throwers here. And yes, as nice as you seem from your posts, I believe you are also part of that problem.
By the way, you and I do agree on another thing that Debbie has been off base on. The supposed loss in authorities were based on hyperventilated rumors coursing through HQ. Even if these authorities were to go, it would not have been career ICE management’s fault, they don’t want to lose them. You also know that ICE had to justify why it should keep control of these authorities. So there was a grain of truth that propelled these rumors. But the sharks have been circling for 4 years now and they’ve only been successful at biting off Greenquest (a big loss though).
I’m sure the Director would be more successful with a qualified, competent AS. She’d still be the same mean-spirited, vindictive, morale-crushing “leader” that she is today though. She would have blended right in with the old INS management in that regard.
Despite all of our problems, this is still a great agency to be in. Name a Federal violation and we can find an angle to work it. I know legacy INS guys now doing dope and STRAT cases and legacy Customs guys doing document fraud and alien smuggling cases and loving it. No matter who is in charge, we’re always going to have our share of knuckleheads, either at the top, local or agent level. Until then, aside from CEU, there is always interesting work right around the corner. The challenge is going to be succeeding in spite of, rather than due to, top management. The fact is, I believe we’ll meet that challenge.

Staypositive on June 14, 2007 at 11:59 pm

“I’m sure the Director would be more successful with a qualified, competent AS. She’d still be the same mean-spirited, vindictive, morale-crushing “leader” that she is today though. She would have blended right in with the old INS management in that regard.” -Staypostitive
Julie will be gone by January. Marcy will be gone after the 2008 election. The “John Chakwins” of ICE will remain for years after both are long gone. They can’t afford to retire (FERS) and they are too incompetent to be hired outside of government. Stay positive?

JaxBeachBum on June 15, 2007 at 12:51 am

I was unable to determine if you responded to my last post on the June 1st Archived article. If you did, could you please re-post your response here?
True American

True American on June 15, 2007 at 1:20 am

I was unable to determine if you responded to my post on the Archived June 1st article. If you did, could you please re-post it here?
True American

True American on June 15, 2007 at 1:25 am

All this about Marcy is similar to what happened next door to DRO here in LA. They had an totally incompentant FOD, I think she was acting FOD, who I understand was completey vindictive, managed by emotions, and had her own group if incompentant DRO staff that she kept close and protected. Well, a new FOD came in and he has taken DRO and made some impressive changes. This new FOD has done more in 6 months than the old acting FOD or Deputy FOD (not sure which she was) did in 4 years. Similar to Marcy LA DRO was microcosm of the ICE. Where an incompetant female ruling the agency by emotions, intimidation, and pure evil vindictiveness knows not how to manage. The only difference is LA DRO has new FOD who is cleaning house, they moved the old former incompetant FOD to another office I think, where I hear she hides and stays low. She’s not educated at all and failed promotion interviews several times. They need to send her to DC. But, I least the worngs have been fixed and now her legacy has been stripped of her. Goodbye Norma, we got you.

ICE4EVER on June 15, 2007 at 1:49 am

Animal Farm by George Orwell was fun satire so here goes one last time with the animals: You can crack the whip and put on a good show making the Tigers jump through hoops and rollover, everyone will clap, you’ll be a big star. But don’t fool yourself and get retired like “Zigfried and Roy”. ICE agents are not Sheepdogs regardless of how many Scooby snacks you toss.

code7 on June 15, 2007 at 6:16 am

I think you and I agree about more than we disagree, and I appreciate your posts.
When I said I haven’t seen a legitimate EEO complaint filed, I meant it, but it doesn’t mean that there aren’t any, just that I haven’t seen any.
My system, while oversimplified perhaps, would go a long way towards killing the nonsensible, frivolous claims, but wouldn’t prevent the genuine claims from proceeding forward.
A system where one can claim anything under the sun, without ever being held accountable is simply wasteful in this man’s opinion.
The other point that I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on is the fact that 1811’s leaving ICE/OI to work as 1801’s won’t be welcomed back to ICE/OI.
I think you would agree that Criminal Investigations requires different skill sets, than does Detention and Removal Operations.
In the old INS, Special Agents would leave Investigations to become Inspectors, Port Director, or Supervisory Deportation Officers for two reasons, Mobility and/or Promotion opportunities.
They would then jump back to Investigations when the next opportunity for advancement and/or a position became available where they wanted to be.
The result was 1811’s coming up through the ranks, ended up working for supervisors who had spent the bulk of their careers in a non-investigative capacity, who couldn’t provide the leadership they needed.
I believe Special Agents require leadership from those that have worked continuously as Special Agents, and who understand the complexities of that position.
There are ample promotion opportunities within OI that didn’t exist in the old INS days, and you can pay your own way and move anywhere there is a vacancy, as long as the SAC’s agree to the transfer. There’s no longer a reason to jump from OI to DRO.
There is no question that we’ll lose some great talent this way, and I’d suggest that we’ll be better off in ICE, having some of these people working for DRO, as they’ll understand our issues better. Long term, ICE/OI will be healthier with Special Agents supervising Special Agents.
I think this is the rationale behind HQS position on this issue.
Sorry you didn’t understand or agree with Mr. Bennett’s analogy. It’s my view that we have many sheep in today’s world, and only a few sheepdogs who are willing to do what is necessary to protect them.
We’ll continue to watch over the flock, and rise to challenge the wolves that threaten.
Tigers I believe are more interested in their own survival and well being, without concern for helping those that can’t or won’t protect themselves. You can be tiger if you’d like, but please keep your scooby snacks to yourself. LOL
Work safe,

EverVigilantSheepdog on June 15, 2007 at 8:05 am

Dear “True American”
First of all, sorry I could not re-reply soooner; was operationally out of pocket last 2 days …
First of all, please do not misconstrue the quotation marks – I use them to indicate the use of a pseudonym, and NOT to question the motives behind the pseudonymns. Based on your last post, I found your comments to be insightful and respectful, and I do not question that you, like I, have patriotic motives for wanting to see this mess called ICE turned around.
Now, regarding my use of a screenname, there are 2 reasons I chose it and what it represents to me …
First, despite the name, I have always stated that it was NOT above me, or any legacy Customs agent to work a document fraud or alien smuggling case (traditionally legacy INS cases) that is CRIMINAL in nature. What gives me and many of my brethren heartburn is that, quite often, the lines blur between the criminal and the single-issue administrative deportation case, and we are expected to “clean our own fish”, which takes away from working the complex criminal cases that we got hired and get paid to do.
For example, case in point: I used to work in a drug group. We’d get a tip that dope was being stashed in a residence, and we’d decide, based on the circumstances, to go and do a “knock and talk” (voluntary contact). A person there would open the door and let us in; we’d get ID on all the occupants – ALL 15 OF THEM !!! After a K-9 sweep, no dope, but 10 of the 15 are illegal; can’t get a harboring charge in my AOR (1324)- no knowledge by the other 5; they’re just some families sharing house space scraping by the best they can. Fraud? (1543/1546) – FORGET IT !!! The AUSA tells us to pound sand. So, what are we left with? We can’t ignore the illegality like legacy INS used to do (I think it was called DISCRETION ?!), so now, we are stick with a bunch of illegals, each with their own set of legal circumstances (who has a USC kid, who is seeking asylum, etc.). We try calling DRO to come out and at least help us process and transport – the response? SORRY, TOO BUSY ! TOO BUSY TO DO WHAT? THEIR JOBS ???!!! That’s EXACTLY what DRO’s function is – ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESSING and TRANSPORT (Read the job description). Now, beacuse their response is – “You caught ’em, you clean ’em” (which, by the way, was the standard legacy INS way of passing off work between the various divisions there (Investigations, DRO, etc.) – Criminal Investigators are now tasked with having to haul these 10 people back to the SAC office, putting them into ENFORCE, arranging for bedspace, assembling the A-files and hauling them to the SPC – to find what? DRO officers sitting on their asses in their pretty little tactical uniforms in their pretty leased police vehicles with the newest lightbars and sirens and complaining that they didn’t gat paid FLSA on top of their AUO for some job they worked lasty week -PUH-LEEZE !!! And now they want non-supervisory 13s? It will be over my dead body and a cold day in hell before any DRO officer gets a non-supervisory 13 for doing administrative work (and not even that), while I went and got a college degree, spent 19 weeks in the academy and have worked over 50 criminal cases which have put some 35 defendants in PRISON for a total of some 200 YEARS between them.
The second reason I chose my screenname was because, as a member of Customs, I felt part of a FAMILY – loved, respected, taken care of. I worked for legacy INS for two years as an Inspector at a major Northeastern airport: 80 to 90 hour weeks, job duties that weren’t even in my job description, style over substance, abusive management, shortchanging me on OT and the ever popular ” I don’t give a f**k about you or your family – make sure you’re here 15 minutes before your shift and be prepared to stay 59 minutes after without pay”. Customs? 180 degrees the opposite – fair hours, honest pay for an honest day’s work, respectful management, concern for family and personal development. What I see now, in the new ICE is a creep back towards the legacy INS days: memos on how to write memos, dress codes, management by fear and intimidation, no concern for family dynamics or clear guidance or direction on job duties, amongst other things.
Believe you me, friend, I chose my screen name very carefully, and stand by it – I often look at my Lucite-encapsulated legacy badge and tears come to my eyes, because I remember the pride with which I received it so many years ago. Now, with regards to ICE, I really couldn’t care less if they threw my badge in the trash when I’m done; I can’t leave fast enough. And, furthermore, if we were still Customs, this whole message board and the posts to it would’nt exist, because legacy Customs agents would be too happy with their jobs to pay much attention to it.
Speaks volumes, my friend, doesn’t it?
Be well.

4EVERCUSTOMS on June 15, 2007 at 8:26 am

Problems at the SAC LA office: run down cars for agents while the ASACs, DSACs and SAC drive brand new, 2007 fully pimped SUVs; no opportunities for training or travel for the offices in RIV and SB; no possibility in hell for anyone to go to a group that they want to go to and that they would know they could do well based on KSAs; a vindictive ASAC in Long Beach who does not want any personnel to assist any agents (one in particular) in learning how to do their newly assigned jobs; a DSAC and SAC who have no street experience AT ALL, while the DSAC in Long Beach has all the street expereince one can ask for, yet he gets screwed over when promotions come up.
And finally, when ever we in the outlying SAC LA offices call LA for the DSAC, she is never there! Where does she work????? What hours?????

rivfedup on June 15, 2007 at 12:46 pm

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