July 9, 2010, - 2:50 pm

My Former Boss Pleads Guilty in Islamic Terrorism Case

By Debbie Schlussel

Yes, I’m aware that my former boss, Congressman Mark D. Siljander, pleaded guilty to two counts in an Islamic charity terrorism case, earlier this week.  He pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI (obstruction of justice) and serving as an unregistered foreign agent.  I was going to put something up about it, earlier.  But I was waiting for the court to make his guilty plea available.  It did not, so these “minutes” issued by the Federal Court are all that is available.  Even with his legal team featuring James “F–k the Jews” Baker didn’t save him from facing some modicum of justice.

marksiljandersiljanderstaffid.jpg

My Congressional Staff ID From When I Worked For Mark Siljander

As you’ll recall, over two years ago, when Siljander was indicted, I wrote about it (and was on FOX News talking about it–see below).  While I do not know if Siljander was involved in directly aiding terrorists, for me that is not the issue.  The issue is that, when I worked for him, he was one of the few who–early on, in the mid-’80s–understood the threat of Islam and jihad to the West, to America, to Christianity, to the Jews, to Israel.  And so, he knew better now.

But as I wrote two years ago, apparently for money, Siljander changed his tune, shilling for the Omar Al-Bashir, the despotic mass-murdering Muslim leader of Sudan, claiming Al-Bashir is misunderstood.  Al-Bashir, as Siljander well knows, wiped out Black Christians in Sudan, gang-raping and torturing them, mass-murdering then, and forcibly converting the rest to Islam.   Now, he’s killing the Black Muslims.  But Siljander now says he’s a nice guy.  My late father was a contributor to Siljander’s campaigns for office because Black Christians in Sudan was an important issue to my father (who had many files on the issue and constantly wrote letters and made calls to try to help them) and to Siljander.  I’m sure my father is turning over in his grave, now.

Siljander also shilled for Islam, making absurd outreach speeches to Muslim groups and trying to impress upon evangelical Christians that Islam isn’t bad.  He wrote a ridiculous book, “A Deadly Misunderstanding:  A Congressman’s Quest to Bridge the Muslim-Christian Divide,” making the same arguments.  But, again, Siljander knew better.

Siljander accepted money from the Islamic American Relief Agency–and Al-Qaeda/Taliban front group–to lobby for the “charity” and try to get it removed from a Senate list of questionable Islamic charities.  Since then the charity has been shut down, and the Treasury Department named it a Specially Designated Global Terrorist Entity.  One of its top officials, a Muslim, pleaded guilty and admitted he paid Siljander to do work for the charity.

After I wrote about Siljander’s indictment and appeared on FOX News, his relatives and friends started sending me angry e-mails, claiming he did nothing wrong, that I was wrong, etc.  But, this week, he pleaded guilty.  And it’s not just about Siljander taking a lesser plea so that he could avoid the expense of a strong defense team in court.  In May, the government filed its exhibit list in the case against Siljander (the list alone is over 100 pages).  Even though the actual exhibits aren’t included, the description of hundreds of e-mails, etc. listed made it very clear to me that Mark Siljander knew quite well what he was doing and who he was helping.  And I know that he knew it was wrong.  Yes, he lied to the FBI about it.  And yes, he tried to launder the money.

To me, though, even had Siljander told the FBI the truth and registered as a lobbyist, it wouldn’t matter.  Yes, it would not be illegal.  But he’d still be prostituting himself for the forces of evil–the most extreme forces of Islam and its desire to fund Islamic terrorism and Islam’s continuing push on America and American culture.

I’m sad about this, and it pains me, especially because I enjoyed working for him, particularly because I saw how much he understood the global Islamic threat then–a threat he’s understood at every point since.  And yet, apparently for money, he tried to help enable and further the threat.  I’m very sorry he did this.  But that was the choice he made.  It just goes to show you that anyone is capable of helping our enemies.  Anyone.

***

A footnote:  among the many professional Arabs and Muslims who convert to Christianity for speaking engagement and book cash from Christians and Jews is Tawfik Hamid, who says his mentor was Al-Qaeda’s Ayman Al-Zawahiri.  Hamid is among those I’ve often been asked about.  You should know that Hamid is among the few names who gave the book glowing endorsement blurbs and praises Siljander for “understanding” Islam.

That should tell you all you need to know about Tawfik Hamid’s story that the saw the light on Islam.  No, he just saw the cash for pretending to see the light on Islam.  Anyone who truly made the transformation wouldn’t have anything to do with Mark Siljander’s propaganda efforts.

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52 Responses

Damn Debbie…you’re awfully cute in that photo :)

ebayer on July 9, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    I was going to say “young and innocent”! Look what life does to us all!

    As goes Israel - so goes the World on July 12, 2010 at 4:24 pm

This is rather sad in a sense that someone who had it right went to the Darkside.

CaliforniaScreaming on July 9, 2010 at 3:49 pm

How could anybody be surprised about this? He is a politician after all, and he’s just one rung below lawyers and used car salesmen.

Jarhead on July 9, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Never fall in love with a politician. They will break your heart EVERY time.

    As goes Israel - so goes the World on July 12, 2010 at 4:25 pm

What does the K. stand for?
(Just curious, there are very few Jewish traditional girls names beginning with K. The only one I can think of is Kayla.)

exdemexlib on July 9, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    Reading Is Fundamental = RIF. Read her ID card. Her middle name is Karen!

    NormanF on July 9, 2010 at 3:56 pm

Mark D. Siljander’s sole motivation for helping Islam was money. Any one of us faces such temptations in life. The good guys say “NO” to it. The weak guys, like Debbie’s ex boss, find themselves where they are today.

And I’m not sorry to see him go to prison. People like him will destroy America if they are allowed to get away with it.

NormanF on July 9, 2010 at 3:55 pm

Maybe Siljander will be converted to islam in prison. He seems to have enough love for the muzzies that he will at least check it out. In prison, I guess Siljander will find out how peaceful islam is.

And since he is now a muzzie lover, I hope he gets a conjugal visit from the muzzie version of Bubba while he is in prison.

Jarhead on July 9, 2010 at 4:04 pm

I love the hair color!!

BLESS ISRAEL on July 9, 2010 at 4:11 pm

Will he go to a REAL prison or was a deal struck for the guilty plea that includes a short stay at the country club? He should be horsewhipped in the public square and then pelted with rotten vegetables by grade school children while their teacher explains to them why shame and REAL punishment is good for the soul.

Farmer John on July 9, 2010 at 4:16 pm

@ Norman F.

Karen is not a traditional Jewish name. Deborah is. The K. stands for something else, (possibly Kreindel or other Polish-Jewish name, and then the English name was Karen.)

exdemexlib on July 9, 2010 at 4:25 pm

babe with brains!

hill billy on July 9, 2010 at 4:49 pm

“And I’m not sorry to see him go to prison. People like him will destroy America if they are allowed to get away with it.”

Obama too?…for violating his oath of office?

Dr Dale on July 9, 2010 at 6:46 pm

I think the point to take away from this is how much “easy money” is out there for those that compromise with Islam.
It is very tempting – especially during hard times. Then a person can rationalize what they are doing.

AS I imagine this must happen more than we know – I wonder why HE is being brought to justice and why now.

Just my thoughts….
(Yes, that’s a lovely 1985 photo there and Debbie looks & sounds great on FOX too –
& BTW, any Enlgish name can be given to an American of the Jewish faith. There are plenty of American Jewish “Karens.”

Cat K on July 9, 2010 at 7:20 pm

And this should tell Israel something. Making concession after concession for the imagined good will of politicians who are first and always, opportunists. Yes, he got tried and true antisemite Baker (a friend of George Bush II) as an attorney, but does anyone really doubt that many other attorneys, including Jewish ones, would have supported him if they thought it would be financially lucrative?

And Israel apparently believes promises by members of Congress such as Siljander, people who will make the same betrayals when they think it appropriate.

Little Al on July 9, 2010 at 7:22 pm

    It’s like this: Hamas and Hezbollah are encamped on the Gaza and Lebanon boarder with 42,000 long and short range missiles (three times more missiles than they had in 2006 for the Lebanon war) that can reach the heaviest population centers in Israel including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

    You need nerves of steel to live under that pressure coupled with Iran’s daily Hilter-like threat to kill all the Jooos.

    Compromise is a death sentence.

    As goes Israel - so goes the World on July 12, 2010 at 4:31 pm

      As goes Israel- so goes the World,

      You have written that the Hamas and Hezbollah have 42,000 missiles surrounding Israel. Man, you just would not know the truth if it hit you in the head. They do not have 42,000 missiles. They rarely have shown any capabilities to possess “long range” anything!!! Again, truth escapes you, and most people like you that want to use fear, manipulation and propagated media to convince the world that Israel is the victim…

      trepidation on July 13, 2010 at 11:59 am

        trepidation

        You’re jealous that I have access to inside information. So, put it in your pipe and smoke it.

        Truth is wasted on you.

        As goes Israel - so goes the World on July 13, 2010 at 12:15 pm

If Siljander is guilty, he should be flogged by police until blood runs down his back.

Truth on July 10, 2010 at 8:50 am

    No, he should be dragged into the street and beaten publicly.

    As goes Israel - so goes the World on July 12, 2010 at 4:27 pm

I am appalled at the number of people walking around claiming to be born-again Christians who do things like Mr. Siljander.
Please don’t lump all born-again believers into steroetypes;
There is a remnant out there who has not bowed to the God of money. And who truly stand beside Israel. This is very sad what he did and if he really knows Yeshua–Then Yeshua will be there for him even in prison if that is where he is sent.
There is a price to pay for personal choices.

Miss Truth on July 10, 2010 at 2:58 pm

Two things:

1) Shame on Mark D. Siljander for what he did.

2) Little Al’s July 9, 2010 at 7:22 pm post is must reading for all current and future members of Israel’s government as well as anyone else who believes that Israel should “take risks for peace.”

JeffE on July 10, 2010 at 11:25 pm

Mark is not a “born again” or “anti-Jewish”. He did not launder money, and he was not complicit with terrorist groups. Standing behind Israel is not a global requirement although Mark has never not supported Israel he just prefers peace, whereas the Israeli Political organ as a whole is bound and determined to ignore common humanity for others. Mark chooses to follow the teachings of Jesus, but as you hate-mongers and elitist slew your judgments and stand on your soapboxes, remember how much you all do to disgrace your individual holy books, whether it be the Torah or the Bible.

The US government is corrupt, and it illogically supports Israel unconditionally. There is a large and growing population in the “Christian” community who do not support Israel or believe that Jews are the chosen people, mostly because they decided to open their eyes and read the Bible in entirety and not just a couple of verses, which is largely subject to interpretation, and most likely poorly translated. We are all GODS people. This would include Buddhists, Christians, Jews, and MUSLIMS.

You would call me a anti-Semitic but in reality I don’t have any affinity for or against Jews or Arabs. I do however have a large barometer for humanity for which Israel has shown a propensity to ignore. See this is logical… this is truth. There is no excuse for the holocaust, but there is equally no excuse for how Israel has treated Palestinians or any Arab for that matter. Oh, and for the record, I am a Christian… but my lineage is Jewish… So in here lies the conflict of unselfishly seeking peace, even at the cost of being persecuted by the Jewish or Neo-conservative establishment.

trepidation on July 12, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    “…only complicit”?

    Are you really saying he was only complicit?

    You’re either for me or against me.

    As goes Israel - so goes the World on July 12, 2010 at 4:22 pm

      Strike that reply!

      You want to apologise or make excuses for an anti Semite – go right away, Mo.

      As goes Israel - so goes the World on July 12, 2010 at 4:23 pm

      No, I do not have to be for you or against you. This is another lie which lacks any logic and shows disregard for the other 6 billion people living in the world who do not lack FUNDAMENTAL HUMANITY..

      Mark was never complicit with terrorist organizations… Your Establishment recreates history to fit a purpose. It is not founded on truth and has mastered trying to create a statement by intentionally misinterpreting others. You are right about one thing, So goes Israel, so goes the world… the world has become a hateful, vengeful and judgmental place.. That should tell you just a bit about what Israel has brought to the table, friend.

      trepidation on July 12, 2010 at 8:10 pm

        Mo posted:

        “That should tell you just a bit about what Israel has brought to the table, friend.”

        Nice job of blaming the victim, Mo trepidation!

        As goes Israel - so goes the World on July 13, 2010 at 12:19 pm

          Hear in lies the problem… Your ignorance and acting (and poorly) like a victim… Victims typically don’t disregard human life and deny basic necessities to entire groups of people. What Israel is doing is making excuses (and poor ones) for bad behavior.

          People are getting tired of using the holocaust for a reason for the insidious actions against others. Although a tragic horror of epic proportions, it does not give Israel, Jews or Neo-Conservatives (that have never read the book they say justifies support) the right to violate, discriminate, or kill others.

          The only victim here is truth… Because you and many others have no idea how to speak it, friend.

          trepidation on July 13, 2010 at 2:46 pm

Re:

["People are getting tired of using the holocaust for a reason for the insidious actions against others. Although a tragic horror of epic proportions, it does not give Israel, Jews or Neo-Conservatives (that have never read the book they say justifies support) the right to violate, discriminate, or kill others."

trepidation on July 13, 2010 at 2:46 pm]

You have it wrong. Israel hasn’t been killing terrorist or taken other action because of the Holocaust. Israel instead has been taken its actions in response to and in defense of the Islamic States unjust, immoral, illegal, and evil war against Israel. And yet you blame Israel. That is what As goes Israel so goes the World means in saying that you are blaming the victim.

Which leads also to (same post)

” Victims typically don’t disregard human life and deny basic necessities to entire groups of people.”

That is correct. And Israel in fact has had a very high regard for the lives of the civilians that are affected by Israel’s actions to the point of putting its own soliders’ lives in danger. And believe me, if it were otherwise, Israel would have, for example, totally destroyed Hezbollah back in 2006. In Gaza, Israel has been allowing food and neccessiates there, looking out only for rockets and other weapons.

JeffE on July 13, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    Jeff

    Have you ever been to Lebanon? Gaza? West Bank? I have. You talk from a position of ignorance. I used to believe what you wrote, embarrassingly so until I had a paradigm crash because I spent a great deal of time in the region and with the people on all sides.

    you wrote, “Israel instead has been taken its actions in response to and in defense of the Islamic States unjust, immoral, illegal, and evil war against Israel.”

    What is unjust, immoral, or illegal? Show me the indictment of what they have done, not some clever word-speak that has no basis of facts but is a indictment of the character of about 300 million people!!

    you wrote, “And Israel in fact has had a very high regard for the lives of the civilians that are affected by Israel’s actions to the point of putting its own soliders’ lives in danger. And believe me, if it were otherwise, Israel would have, for example, totally destroyed Hezbollah back in 2006.”

    Israel destroyed a quarter of what amounted to a downtown area of Los Angeles. Civilian lives accounted for 80% of the casualties. The excuse was that Hezbollah was using the people as human shields. This is like a soldier being on leave in the US military back with his family and bombing entire neighborhoods to kill that soldier. That is what Israel did.

    To get rid of Hezbollah, you would have to destroy all of Lebanon because nearly the entire population, including Christians and Muslims alike support the cause the Hezbollah represents. The repression of the people is evident, the disproportionate actions of Israel is evident, and the lack of fundamental humanity ON THE GROUND, THERE is overwhelmingly evident.

    you wrote, “In Gaza, Israel has been allowing food and neccessiates there, looking out only for rockets and other weapons.”

    This is not only a lie, it is a blatant disregard for the truth. Water is rationed, and food is let in at the whim of Israel. What would amount to severe abuse in almost any other country in the world, Israel deploys against men women and children in Gaza, the West Bank and even Lebanon. The conditions are deplorable… that is truth and that is what truth you and others look to deny the public from knowing.

    The Israeli soldiers serve Israel honorably and courageously, much like the soldiers of any other nation in the world serve their prospective country. there are many wars and causes that soldiers serve that are unsupported or unpopular even within the ranks. This rings true in Israel as well. Israel is not the problem, the problem is the lack of humanity and lack of restraint by which those in position and power operate.

    To swing this back to Mark Siljander, which is what this article is about. Mark has never done anything against Israel, or to the detriment of Israel. Mark has never been involved with terrorist entities and has only sought to seek peace using the common ground between the three main Abrahamic faiths. That has not sat well with the establishment and so goes the persecution he has faced including the charges and the media propagation. Truth is not ambiguous… but it is rarely written.

    trepidation on July 14, 2010 at 12:42 pm

Re: my 9:00 pm post.

“looking out”, meaning, preventing entry into Gaza.

JeffE on July 13, 2010 at 9:02 pm

Re:

["Jeff

Have you ever been to Lebanon? Gaza? West Bank? I have. You talk from a position of ignorance. I used to believe what you wrote, embarrassingly so until I had a paradigm crash because I spent a great deal of time in the region and with the people on all sides."

trepidation on July 14, 2010 at 12:42 pm]

No, I haven’t been to Lebanon, Gaza, Judea, or Samaria. But I do a lot of reading–and not just this site, but I have read a lot of books and articles about the Arab-Israeli conflict. But since you’ve been there, tell me, did you see with your own eyes what Israel has done, or are you only relying on the Arabs and/or Muslims, and leftist Israelis have told you Israel has been doing?

["What is unjust, immoral, or illegal? Show me the indictment of what they have done, not some clever word-speak that has no basis of facts but is a indictment of the character of about 300 million people!!"]

That the Arab states started wars against Israek in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1982. They have also refused all of Israel’s offers of peace. Oh, BTW, since you’ve been to Gaza, did the Palestinian Arabs declare their state of independence of “Palestine” there after Israel withdrew from that territory in 2005? If they did, I must have missed it. They aren’t even doing their war against Israel properly. If I were on the Palestinian Arab side, I would have kept Gaza quiet and have the violence be in the Judea and Samaria territories, or, “the West Bank,” as you call it, so that I can then say that the Israeli withrawal paid off, and use that to get Israel to withdraw from Judea and Samaria, then after that withdrawal, BAMM! new Arab-Israeli war. But instead, the opposite has happened, rocket attacks against Israel, and a kidnapping of an Israeli soldier, meanwhile the so-called “West Bank” has been relatively quiet.

Before I move on to your next point, at the risk of putting words in you mouth, in my above paragraph, I’m assuming that you believe that if only Israel were to withdraw from Gaza, and the so-called West Bank and have a Palestinian state be established in those territories, that there would then be peace. If I’m wrong in assuming that, then I apoloigize and then you can disregard the part about the Palestinian state in Gaza.

["To get rid of Hezbollah, you would have to destroy all of Lebanon because nearly the entire population, including Christians and Muslims alike support the cause the Hezbollah represents. The repression of the people is evident, the disproportionate actions of Israel is evident, and the lack of fundamental humanity ON THE GROUND, THERE is overwhelmingly evident."]

Well, didn’t you previously say that “Victims typically don’t disregard human life” (on July 13, 2010 at 2:46 pm), meaning that Israel, whom you deny is a victim, disregards human life? So then, why didn’t Israel totally destroy Lebanon if they have no regard for human life? Afterall, if you look in the thread on Poland, one person who is not pro-Israel has said that Israel has the most powerful army in the Middle East–in fact, the fourth most powerful in the world. Also, don’t forget the context about why the Israel-Hezbollah war in Lebanaon happened in the first place: Hezbollah went into Israel’s pre-1967 territory, kidnapped three Israeli soldiers, murdered six others, went back to southern Lebanaon, and fired rockets against Israel. They also targeted Israeli civilians by continuing to fire rockets in Israel throughout the war. You surely won’t say that Hezbollah has any regard for human life, or deny that Hezbollah did any of these things, will you?

[“you [JeffE] wrote, “In Gaza, Israel has been allowing food and neccessiates there, looking out only for rockets and other weapons.”

This is not only a lie, it is a blatant disregard for the truth. Water is rationed, and food is let in at the whim of Israel. What would amount to severe abuse in almost any other country in the world, Israel deploys against men women and children in Gaza, the West Bank and even Lebanon. The conditions are deplorable… that is truth and that is what truth you and others look to deny the public from knowing.”]

Really? Then would you mind explaining this?:

http://tinyurl.com/2cj35gv

and

http://tinyurl.com/28t2qsp

["To swing this back to Mark Siljander, which is what this article is about. Mark has never done anything against Israel, or to the detriment of Israel."]

You are correct that this article is about Mark Siljander. I have no inside information on him. I do know that, as Debbie reported above, “… Congressman Mark D. Siljander, [Debbie's former boss] pleaded guilty to two counts in an Islamic charity terrorism case, earlier this week. He pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI (obstruction of justice) and serving as an unregistered foreign agent,” and she has two links to back that up. That is enough to convince me that he sold Israel out.

JeffE on July 14, 2010 at 9:28 pm

    Wow Jeff, your response is articulate… but ignorant to the realities of what really exists.

    You wrote: ‘No, I haven’t been to Lebanon, Gaza, Judea, or Samaria. But I do a lot of reading–and not just this site, but I have read a lot of books and articles about the Arab-Israeli conflict. But since you’ve been there, tell me, did you see with your own eyes what Israel has done, or are you only relying on the Arabs and/or Muslims, and leftist Israelis have told you Israel has been doing?”

    So let me get this straight, you rely on books and articles and somehow your information is more convincing and accurate than “Arabs and or Muslims, and leftist Israelis” who live there? First of all, I have seen with my own eyes what Israel has done to people, because unlike you, I believe only what I can validate otherwise it is just another lie. But nonetheless, your comments are like saying racism does not exist in the US, or has been reduced in the US. This would be true, unless you are Black, Hispanic, or Asian, and subject to it, which would then make it more prevalent than diminished.

    I can see that if you took a trip that allowed you to explore the path off what I call the controlled tour, you would have a severe paradigm crash. Here is how I see you, friend. You’re a Christian, conservative; you read the bible and pride yourself on knowing the “word”. You’re not tolerant of the people around you, and your family probably would say you are one person, while you profess yourself as someone else to your bible group or men’s group. You are rigid in your faith views and values but in your life you have struggled to follow your own judgment of others. You cling to the word “by grace you are saved” knowing that how you treat your neighbor is less than honorable. You like to tell others what your opinion is, and dismiss those who disagree with you as less educated or delusional. Meaning you are educated, see yourself as successful but are estranged from either your kids or parents. You are a bit jaded of people, yet want to belong, and something about being a supporter of Israel just gets you that much closer to acceptance in God’s eyes. This is just my opinion so I COULD be wrong.

    I am not going to address more of your responses as my experience and your lack of experience is so drastically contrasted it would be like arguing with futility. I will say that books and articles are written to sway opinion and build justification. You can find any number of books that will support your side or another; but it will always only represent only one perspective, and no matter which side, will fail to see the value of those you oppose. I guess that is why I support only humanity, don’t take sides, and have the ability to maintain relationships with many with different perspectives of the debate.

    Back to the Mark issue of your email….

    I was going to write a long dissertation on the subject, to give you the reality of what transpired but based on your finality of his “selling out Israel”, I can again not argue with ignorance. Justifying your position with, “she has two posts to back it up”. Are you really this ignorant? Scratch that, you are… You represent the reason the establishment gets away with lies and distortions of truth. You perpetuate the lie and justify your behavior with, “but it was written on this blog or on this station so it must be true”… GROW A BRAIN, and for once in your life be the arbiter of the reality you being asked to believe.

    Mark is a good man, one that has served his faith unconditionally his entire life. He and his family have endured three years of what would amount to a sentence all on its own. Mark pled guilty and for that he will endure a scarlet letter than only death and his time before God will remove. With the inflammatory insinuation of terrorist ties, anti-Muslim sentiment, and the trial to be held in WHITEBREAD KANSAS, the scales of justice where unfavorably tilted against Mark, not for the facts but for the propagated and prejudices pushed upon him. But in the eye of the infallible public opinion, they will judge him ruthlessly while they buy their internet porn and cling to the idea that “because of grace, God will forgive them, but crucify Mark…

    trepidation on July 15, 2010 at 2:54 pm

Re: trepidation on July 15, 2010 at 2:54 pm

Wow! Where should I begin?

You say that I’m judgmental, but I hadn’t judged you, though that will change before this post is done. I can only go by what you have posted. My policy is to make sure that I can defend everything that I write and prove my points. Can you?

When I said that have haven’t travelled to Lebanon, Gaza, Judea and Samaria, but read a lot of books and articles on the Arab-Israeli conflict, at least I was (and am) honest. When I asked whether you have saw events in Israel or involving Israel as opposed to relying only on Arabs/Muslims and Israeli leftists have told you they say happened, the reason why I asked this is that if you only believe what they say without also seeing some things with your own eyes that backs up what they say, that is only slightly better than reading a book or article written by them, which you belittle. BTW, I didn’t say that they were exclusively pro-Israel. I have read numerous pro-Arab/anti-Israel material as well, and can competently articulate their points and respond to them, a lot of the topics which don’t require visiting the region. Also, BTW, what goes on in my personal life other than what I post here is none of your business and is of no concern to you.

Well, since you have said as to how you see me, let me return the favor. As I said, I can only go by what you post. So far, all you have been is bluster, and no substance. You will not be able to convince anyone with that approach. In my post that I wrote yesterday, I gave you two links, which you’ve ignored, probably didn’t even read, while you haven’t given squat.

For example, you write above, “I was going to write a long dissertation on the subject, to give you the reality of what transpired but based on your finality of his “selling out Israel”, I can again not argue with ignorance.”

You act like you have inside knowledge about Mark D. Siljander, but all you say is that he’s a good man, innoncent, etc., and that’s it, nothing to back it up. Now, the long dissertation that you say that you were going to write which you say would set the record straight, now THAT would be substance. I would love to see that dissertation, only please divide it into four posts, I won’t be able to absorb a super long post, not if it’s as long as I’m imagining to be. (Oops, there I go again, showing my ignorance.) Who knows, if it’s real good, Debbie might be interested in interviewing you, as I’m sure that she will have a vested interested in finding out what really happened to her former boss.

As for your claims of travel to the territories that you say you travelled to, that you saw with your own eyes, tell me at least one story of something that you saw with your own eyes. This will require a separate post. Be warned, I will ask tough questions.

So, here’s my judgment of you, based on what you have written so far. You are all bluster and no substance and I don’t believe you when you claim this inside knowledge. I also don’t believe that you really visited those territories, or, even if you did, that all you did was interview the Arabs/Muslims, and maybe some Israeli leftists, and that’s it. After all, in your exchanges with As goes Israel – so goes the World, you didn’t even mention that you’ve been to the places that you say that you’ve been. It was only in response to my Tuesday post that you finally made that claim. Also, As goes Israel,… claims inside knowledge in saying that “Hamas and Hezbollah are encamped on the Gaza and Lebanon boarder with 42,000 long and short range missiles (three times more missiles than they had in 2006 for the Lebanon war).” You only dismiss it without reason. Why should I believe you over As goes Israel,…? You have one last chance to prove me wrong on my judgement of you. Since it seems that you can only respond during the afternoon, you have until tomorrow afternoon to finally provide some substance, or my judgment of you, which right now is only written in pencil, will be written in ink. Whether its because you don’t even bother to read my response or that you did, but choose not to respond, makes no difference. At he risk of showing more ignorance, tell me, what else am I to think? If you do respond with substance tomorrow according to my terms stated above, I will also want you to eventually, though not necessarily tomorrow, to respond to my other points that I made in my previous post.

So, in short, I’m calling you out, trepidation. Put up, or shut up! If you do shut up, that means that you state that you have no substance and that I’m right and your wrong. (Man, I’ve got to do something about this ignorance of mine.)

BTW, If you do put up, I might not be able to respond immediately, but will at my first opportunity.

JeffE on July 15, 2010 at 9:07 pm

Re my 9:07 pm. post.

Scratch my use of the word “bluster”. I was thinking of a word that means claims or assertions, being boastful. Sorry for my ignorance–and on this one I’m sincere.

JeffE on July 15, 2010 at 9:50 pm

Before you respond to my July 15, 2010 at 9:07 pm post, trepidation, please read this first.

I have engaged in debates with people (offline) with whom I disagree with. They are respectful debates. I don’t engage in any name calling and I remain cordial with the person(s) with whom I’ve debated. Online generally, and here, in particular, I don’t engage in name calling unless the other person does it first either to me, Debbie, or any of my other friends or allies, or if they demonize Israel and/or the Jewish people. For example, this article by Debbie,( http://tinyurl.com/27gcm7w ) where, in my first of two comments that I made in that thread, yes, I said some strong, harsh things there in response. You say that you love all of humanity and I believe you on that one, in which case I’m sure that you will find that comment that I made there to have been justified. I am hoping that you put up tomorrow (technically, later today). I enjoy having a back and forth debate; point-counterpoint. And if you are successful in proving your point, including having that point withstand my scrutiny, I will adjust my worldview accordingly, although you would have to agree to do the same. Try me, and you will see.

JeffE on July 16, 2010 at 12:28 am

    Jeff,

    I probably should not have given anyone a sneak peek into your life on this chat area. I apologize… It is an occupational hazard, and a gift I wish most of the time I did not have. You are right, your private life is no concern of mine or any of those people who would read this.

    Now to address your response.

    You said “When I said that have haven’t travelled to Lebanon, Gaza, Judea and Samaria, but read a lot of books and articles on the Arab-Israeli conflict, at least I was (and am) honest. When I asked whether you have saw events in Israel or involving Israel as opposed to relying only on Arabs/Muslims and Israeli leftists have told you they say happened, the reason why I asked this is that if you only believe what they say without also seeing some things with your own eyes that backs up what they say, that is only slightly better than reading a book or article written by them, which you belittle. BTW, I didn’t say that they were exclusively pro-Israel. I have read numerous pro-Arab/anti-Israel material as well, and can competently articulate their points and respond to them, a lot of the topics which don’t require visiting the region.”

    I disagree. Books are like eyes. They are only as good as the perception and ability to digest what they are looking at. A colorblind individual will miss many of the details. In New Orleans, the main road is manicured and one street over, people are living in half burned out houses, like animals. Since I have and continue to analyze data, including reading many books, literature, lectures and such, I can tell you that rarely do you get the big picture and rarely does a book tell the truth on either side. But seeing it for yourself allows you to be the arbiter of reality portrayed in books, media, and the like. I think that as a whole we have learned to overvalue education and undervalue competency and common sense.

    When I stated that I am for humanity and for neither side, I did so because I have seen both sides act inappropriately. The balance of bad behavior is what I refer to, as Palestinians have a chillingly disproportionate ability to voice their concerns in the global environment. Simply put, they do not have the access to a sustainable media source, which will tell their stories from their prospective.

    You said, “Well, since you have said as to how you see me, let me return the favor. As I said, I can only go by what you post. So far, all you have been is bluster, and no substance. You will not be able to convince anyone with that approach. In my post that I wrote yesterday, I gave you two links, which you’ve ignored, probably didn’t even read, while you haven’t given squat.”

    I read your posts in entirety, including researching who owns Cactus Development (Not that it matters). To say that I have not made any articulate points and it lacks substance is ignorant. Giving me two posts, one that talks about a luxury facility, Olympic size swimming pool, and a restaurant or club facility in Gaza tells me nothing about the region. It serves as yet more propaganda that people in that region must “have enough” or that they are not being treated inhumanly. Specifically, they are tearing down peoples homes and occupying areas in East Jerusalem as we speak. On land that was not a part of the treaty in 1967. They have repeatedly taken land by annexation and kicked families out on the street. Families that have occupied homes they have personally owned for generations. Israel snuck into another country and assassinated someone, but more importantly they used the security and identity (passports) of people of other nationalities, showing a complete disregard for the rest of the world. Or we can talk about the use of cluster bombs by Israel in Lebanon during the War of the summer of 2006. Illegal munitions that consist of smaller fragmented munitions that can detonate years later. Cluster bombs that are illegal yet Israel dropped these bombs on heavily populated civilian areas in Southern Lebanon. Those bombs have killed and maimed innocent men, women and children. I have seen this with my own eyes. That would be inhumane and that would show again a lack of regard for human life. I could go on and on… I could tell you the story of the man who planted a tree, and attempted to give a Israeli soldier candy in what is considered a passive show of protest. That man was beat to death with the butt of a gun… He never raised a hand in anger or protest, but was murdered in cold blood. Or the Reuter’s cameraman that was killed again in cold blood by an Israeli tank. Maybe you would justify this as a accident, but in reality it was murder in cold blood. Or the Al Jazeera Cameraman Sam Al Haj, who spent nearly 6 years in Guantanamo Bay as a prisoner. Care to understand why this man, who I have met and talked to at length, was tortured and held as an enemy combatant for 6 YEARS? He now heads up a human rights division of Al Jazeera, devoting his life to stopping the illegal and immoral treatment by nations, including the US and Israel. I could document thousands of incidences of indecency, abhorrent behavior and humanitarian violations of epic proportions by Israel. I could tell you a more personal story. Of a Lebanese friend of mine… A man who lost four generations of his family when Israel blew up a 6 story apartment building in Beirut. His mother, his father, his grandmother, his nieces and nephews… It took three days for his sister to die, as they were unable to reach her. Three days, on the fourth floor of an apartment building, in a residential neighborhood. My friend found out with a series of phone calls. A series of phone calls from his sister, until the calls stopped coming, because his sister died. No way for him to get in to his family.. In all 11 of him family died. Don’t tell me I have not seen; I have seen plenty. I see without hate for either side, but I have seen what inhumanity does at 40,000 feet and at 4 feet and it is just not right on any level.

    I told you to go there. I told you that if you chose to go there, you will have a paradigm crash. Talk to both sides and see what you cannot read. Experience the human heart. Muslim, Jewish, Christian… It just does not matter, most of them are good people, and most of them not in positions of trust and power, just want peace.

    This is post number one… Next post..

    trepidation on July 17, 2010 at 1:49 am

Okay Jeff, Post 2…

You said, “You act like you have inside knowledge about Mark D. Siljander, but all you say is that he’s a good man, innoncent, etc., and that’s it, nothing to back it up. Now, the long dissertation that you say that you were going to write which you say would set the record straight, now THAT would be substance. I would love to see that dissertation, only please divide it into four posts, I won’t be able to absorb a super long post, not if it’s as long as I’m imagining to be. (Oops, there I go again, showing my ignorance.) Who knows, if it’s real good, Debbie might be interested in interviewing you, as I’m sure that she will have a vested interested in finding out what really happened to her former boss.”

What should I write, friend? What will convince you? I personally know Mark Siljander. I have read his book, I have spent a lot of time with Mark, and I know Mark’s good points and his bad. I have traveled with Mark extensively. I have broken bread with Mark. Is that enough? I have read every transcript from his case, read every motion. Mark, is a very good man. I know that Mark observes the Shabbot and has studied extensively the Torah, Bible, and Quran. Mark has studied Arabic, Aramaic, and Hebrew in an effort to understand if there is a misunderstanding between the three Abrahamic faiths which may raise the roof for all of us to see some common ground of belief. At a minimum, maybe not a common ground but at least some amount of respect for each other. Mark has been married to the same woman for 25 years. Mark has 4 kids. Mark has a moral compass and heart for others that most people would envy and hate.

Specifically, there would not be peace keeping forces in Darfur had it not been for the work Mark has done. Mark has befriended at times in the past, our enemies, been commended by people in the US organ, some in befuddlement of the progress Mark and the team were able to accomplish. In the end, we saw the progress as supernatural, through prayer, again something you will understand when you experience the condition of the human heart.

Mark is my friend, not without fault but only guilty in my opinion of following his faith as it pertains to this indictment.

I have no desire to be interviewed by Debbie or anyone for that matter. But I find the thought that Mark would sell out Israel, offensive and grotesquely wrong. I again do not trust our government, but I have seen the lack of accountability on every level, and I have seen how bad people exist everywhere, not just when they are caught like the DA in the Duke rape case a couple of years ago.

You wrote, “You are all bluster and no substance and I don’t believe you when you claim this inside knowledge. I also don’t believe that you really visited those territories, or, even if you did, that all you did was interview the Arabs/Muslims, and maybe some Israeli leftists, and that’s it. After all, in your exchanges with As goes Israel – so goes the World, you didn’t even mention that you’ve been to the places that you say that you’ve been. It was only in response to my Tuesday post that you finally made that claim. Also, As goes Israel,… claims inside knowledge in saying that “Hamas and Hezbollah are encamped on the Gaza and Lebanon boarder with 42,000 long and short range missiles (three times more missiles than they had in 2006 for the Lebanon war).”

Going to these places does not give me credibility. Assessment and analysis of information makes me credible. They said there was WMD’s in Iraq, but it turned out there wasn’t. The reality is people lie, and no one lies better than the establishment or the media. That is not a bluster, that is fact. Harvard published a report in July 2009 outlining the likelihood of a news report containing “multiple false statements” at nearly 91%. The study is much more interesting than this, but it shows you the desire of human nature to embellish and lie.

As an example I will give you a story that will outline my position. In May 2009 I was involved in an analysis on whether or not there was genocide and ethnic cleansing in Darfur. A claim developed in large part by John Prendergast and John Norris of Save Darfur. I analyzed information from multiple sources on both sides. I had access to some rather confidential documents and ones that I know for a fact are not public. I found the probability of genocide and ethnic cleansing in Darfur nearly nonexistent. It is a lie. A big fat lie that caused chaos. A big fat lie that created a cause, an industry and a paycheck for jerks like Prendergast.

Let me explain. Do you know how big Darfur is? Do you believe it is a city? It is an area the size of France, in a country that is bordered by 9 other nations. It is sparsely populated, tribal in nature. Every tribe has its own militia. Every militia is adequately armed. It is an area with few signs of any government law whatsoever. On top of every tribe having its own militia, there is the Janjaweed, Chadian Rebels, Sudanese Military, and 23 or so Darfurian rebel groups who are heavily armed and due to the tribal nature of the region, somewhat conflicted. These tribes have intermarried for thousands of years, between the blacks and the arabs of the area. Although rapes occur in the region, none of the rapes are sanctioned by the Sudanese Government, and there was NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that there was ever an agenda or mass killings sanctioned, supported or directed by the Sudanese President, Omar Al Bashir. Still don’t believe me… Okay how about this. they say that Christians are being martyred in Darfur. There have not been a Christian population of any significance in Darfur for thousands of years. Again, it is a lie. One designed to pull at the heart strings and purse strings of Americans. One designed to create chaos. There is opportunity in chaos, not peace.. remember that.

I don’t talk from a position of weakness and unlike your indictment of my character, I do not listen to or trust anyone. I trust what I can validate, which is much more than I can say for the hack journalism that exists and is fed to the public today.

So if this is not enough to convince you that I am credible and have real knowledge of the region than like I said in the previous post, it is a act of futility, waste of my time, and waste of breath.

I do however want you to know that I respect your dialog, and although out of passion and frustration of my fingers not typing nearly fast enough, I did resort to a judgement call of your competency and ignorance, I find your points in your email or questions compelling but still based on my knowledge invalid. I welcome an opportunity to chat again, although I am not going to even risk putting my email address on this blog… ;)

Best wishes friend…

trepidation on July 17, 2010 at 2:43 am

Hi trepidation,

I hope that you read this.

Thank you for your two responses.

Re:

“Jeff,

I probably should not have given anyone a sneak peek into your life on this chat area. I apologize… It is an occupational hazard, and a gift I wish most of the time I did not have. You are right, your private life is no concern of mine or any of those people who would read this.”

Apology accepted.

In turn I’m sorry that I gave an indictment of your character. Part of the reason for the heated exchange on my part is that there have been a lot of people who come here and all they do is call Debbie names and demonize Israel and the Jewish people. The link that I gave you on July 16, 2010 at 12:28 am to a previous article by Debbie was to give you a taste of what that’s like generally, and plus there were other threads where people did the same kind of thing directly to Debbie. There were some others who were less extreme, but still make what I and those of Debbie’s regular readers who support her regard as being at best questionable statements, ranging to outgrageous, and when either I or another reader here challenged them, they either don’t respond, don’t engage in the arguments being addressed, etc. Now, I know that none of that is your fault and you are not responsible for what any of the other people have said, but I’m merely telling you this to give you a flavor of what the atmosphere here has been like.

Then you came along here made assertions about Mark D. Siljander and about Israel, and I have now reread your earlier comments here and I don’t believe that you had properly communicated as to what basis you had to make these statements. The fact that you repeatedly called both As Goes Israel,… and me ignorant didn’t help matters either. But now, in the light of your two recent posts, I am convinced that you really have been to the places that you say that you have been and that you do have knowledge of the Middle East region. And to answer your question in your second of your two recent responses, “What should I write, friend? What will convince you [that you have inside knowledge about Mark D. Siljander]?” My answer is, basically what you wrote in that post. I’m now convinced that you do know him and therefore understand why you are upset at what happened to him.

I have more to say, but I want to make my posts short.

End of my post 1.

JeffE on July 18, 2010 at 1:13 am

    Re: my 1:13 am post.

    A clarification:

    “therefore understand why you are upset at what happened to him [Mark D. Siljander].”

    And also why you made the assertions about him that you did.

    JeffE on July 18, 2010 at 2:48 pm

Post 2

“I do however want you to know that I respect your dialog, and although out of passion and frustration of my fingers not typing nearly fast enough, I did resort to a judgement call of your competency and ignorance, I find your points in your email or questions compelling but still based on my knowledge invalid. I welcome an opportunity to chat again, although I am not going to even risk putting my email address on this blog…”

Thank you, trepidation. You now also have my respect. And I again accept your apology. I also would welcome an opportunity to chat with you. We have issues of disagreement, but I want to save that for another time and place to be determined. I more than understand your not wanting to put your email address here and nor do I for the same reason. There are two ways in which we could do this. You could either return to this site and become a regular reader here, or I could email Debbie and ask to ask your permission to send me your email address, or alternatively you could do the same with Debbie. Debbie knows both of our email addresses.

Now if you do decide to become a regular reader and commenter here, let me tell you a few things that will help you here. Debbie herself is an independent conservative and strong supporter of Isrsel. By “independent conservative”, I mean that while she is a conservative, she will go after any conservative who is a phony, hypocritical, and/or otherwise do not live up to conservative standards. Of course, she goes after liberals and left-wingers too, but if anything, she’s even harsher on the conservatives than she is on the liberals. I’m sure that you will disagree with her a lot of issues, whether it’s on issues involving Israel, or on other topics, but that’s okay, as long as you can add to the discussion, and I believe that you can. But whatever you may have of her, two words that should definitely be included are “intellectually honest”. I don’t know how much you know about her, but if you want to know more about her and her credentials, then click on the “About Debbie” link above.

Now there are two or three other regular readers that I would like to tell you about. There are two regulars who don’t always see eye-to-eye with Debbie. One is Norman Blitzer. He is a liberal. Another is Gerald, a self-described critic of Debbie. Agree or disagree with him, he always has interesting things to say. A third reader is one whom you should have some interest. Her name is mk750. She lives in Israel. Since you place a high value in actually being in the Middle East region, I’m sure that talking with her will be of interest to you. You might want to look at some comments that she has made in Debbie’s recent articles. You have already met As Goes Israel, So Goes the World. He’s less patient than I am and I believe that he has moved on from this thread days ago. He’s a devout Christian and a passionate supporter of Israel. I don’t know the extent of his visits in the Middle East, but, as we saw, he claimed inside knowledge about the extent of the missles aimed at Israel. If you ask him about it, maybe he’ll tell you some stories of his own visits in the region, or knows someone who has. (BTW, the information that I have said about these readers are information that they themselves have said on this website. I have had no private conversations with them and am not revealing anything about them that they haven’t revealed here already.)

Either way, I hope to talk with you soon. Till then, best wishes, my friend….

JeffE on July 18, 2010 at 1:37 am

Re: my 1:37 am post:

Close to the end of my third paragraph should read, “But whatever opinion that you may have of her…”

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